Don't know how my libertarian utopia will pan out. I'm awful at social engineering.
Inquisitor:Yes, the free market mostly offers incentives not to discriminate in most cases. I was posting in agreement with you, BTW. I don't see how the closed borders position, as it is typically argued for (not just by libertarians), mimicks what would take place under private property anarchism.
Sure, I didn't interpret you as being hostile.
Inquisitor:Private property anarchism will allow as much 'immigration' (a statist concept - better to say 'movement') as is desired by individuals in given societies. To the extent that disassociation is desirable, it will dominate. We agree on that much. Again, though, closed borders have the opposite effect of open ones - of forced disassociation. Not even closed border libertarians like Hoppe would support this (Hoppe outlines another scheme in DTGTF, basically requiring someone - like an employer - to vouch for the immigrant in question IIRC.)
Private property anarchism will allow as much 'immigration' (a statist concept - better to say 'movement') as is desired by individuals in given societies. To the extent that disassociation is desirable, it will dominate. We agree on that much. Again, though, closed borders have the opposite effect of open ones - of forced disassociation. Not even closed border libertarians like Hoppe would support this (Hoppe outlines another scheme in DTGTF, basically requiring someone - like an employer - to vouch for the immigrant in question IIRC.)
Hoppe argues for the following both in Natural Order... and DTGTF: a current resident issues a pass to a foriegner without which
they would not be allowed entrance; this would detail the length of
stay and would gurantee that I the invitor would bear the full costs of
the immigrant. Anyone selling real estate to an immigrant constitutes voluntary immigration.
The atoms tell the atoms so, for I never was or will but atoms forevermore be.
Byzantine:To put it another way, when the immigrants take to the street demanding the gold standard and an end to the income tax instead of marching for civil rights and expansion of the EIC, I'll be pro-immigrant.
Ludwig von Mises was an immigrant from Austria/Germany (post-Anschluss);
Ayn Rand was an immigrant from Russia;
Friederich Hayek was a student at New York University before going back to his birth country Austria and later becoming an immigrant to Britain;
Where would libertarianism be today without them? What's more, both Mises and Hayek were probably technically classified as "hostile aliens" by the US and UK government when they fled Germany because Nazi Germany was at war with the US and UK. Ayn Rand of course was from the USSR, when that country was a pariah on the international stage.
Physiocrat:Hoppe argues for the following both in Natural Order... and DTGTF: a current resident issues a pass to a foriegner without which they would not be allowed entrance; this would detail the length of stay and would gurantee that I the invitor would bear the full costs of the immigrant.
Get rid of the welfare system, and such a guarantee would be quite unnecessary . . . simply because anyone who can not support him/herself would be, well, unable to live, without someone stepping forward to suppor the person in private capacity.
Some of Hoppe's writings are rather amusing, for example, in his 1999 writing immediately following the sentences that you quoted, we have:
"It implies requiring an existing employment contract with a resident citizen; moreover, for both categories but especially that of citizenship, it implies that all immigrants must demonstrate through tests not only (English) language proficiency, but all-around superior (above-average) intellectual performance and character structure as well as a compatible system of values – with the predictable result of a systematic pro-European immigration bias. "
First of all, existing employment contract is not the only way that one can make a living; Capital and entrepreneurship probably are even greater values to the host society. Then his thesis falls completely apart on two accounts:
(1) As statisticly proven, Europeans are not exact at the tip of the bell curve; for what it's worth, Jews and East Asians are, according to those who are really into testing "intellectual performances." In any case, the "intellectual performance" argument suffers an even greater blow when one realize that, if 100k Mexicans want to immigrate to the US in a year, and only 10k Europeans want to do the same, the top 10% of the 110k applicants is not going to be majority Europeans. The bell curves over-lap way too much to draw "intellectual performance" lines neatly along racial lines (for the same reason, "intellectual performance" test is not going to produce a systematic pro-Jew or pro-Asian immigration bias either despite the tiny difference in population averages).
(2) The "compatible system of values" argument gets really interesting. Who is to set the template of merit for those "values"? If it's up to the federal government as we know it, then racism hasn't exactly been compatible with our "system of values" for quite a few decades now, so should Prof. Hoppe have been rejected on that ground? That's an inevitable problem with government-run artificial templates of merit. Why not just leave it to the free market place; those who can make it in the free market, let them be; those who can not, well since they won't be able to live, they will be the least of our worries. While I may not agree with Prof. Hoppe on every issue, I'd be mightily upset if the government deports him because his "value incompatibilty" gets some uptight university to terminate his employment contract; so long as he can find enough readers for his books and papers to keep himself financially solvent, there's little harm in keeping him in the country, despite a small amount of reduction in subjective values for those who make careers out of "racially sensitivity."
Did you read what JimS said?
Inquisitor:Actually, what is proven is that on average Asians have higher intelligence than Europeans, but that Europeans tend to have a higher tendency toward exceptional scores and genius. Jews are probably being included as individuals of a European background in Hoppe's argument. I would assume being able to invest would free one of the need of having a contract of the sort Hoppe envisions. I wonder if he envisions a role for government setting the criteria you mentioned; if so, I think it'd be redundant, and that the employment contracts etc. would themselves serve to be between individuals which employers thought would best serve their needs.
Kent, I have - where does it follow that Hoppe is a social engineer of the worst type?
Libertarian, thanks for the information, but where are you heading with all the above? Do you believe miscegenation should be discouraged, or are you just reproducing arguments given by racialists?
Oh, brother, where do we begin :-)
libertarian:40% of Nobel price winners are Jews but they make up only 2% of the United States population. Ludwig von Mises, Murray Rothbard and Walter Block are all Jews. Is that a coincidence? Yes, Europeans have several advatages to Asians (like low latent inhibition -> creativity). Thus, avoid intermixing. Intermarriage would hurt each other's capabilities.
In case it's not obvious, Jewishness is defined by matrilinial ancenstry tracing back to one of two tribal groups: one is from the middleast/north-africa (the original 12 tribes, i.e. the biblical Jews), and the other from the Asiatic steppes (Khazars) who converted to Judaism in the 8th century. Neither groups were "European." What we see today as the Europeaness among Jewish population is largely the result of "intermixing," both voluntary and involuntary (e.g. result of rapes during wars and dislocations). The whole concept of "miscegenation" is just silly talk. Considering the high rate of "crossing-over" (lighter skinned offsprings of mix-blood marriages eventually declaring themselves as "white" after a few generations of sexual selection due to social preference) in this country and the thousands of years of "intermixing" that has been going on in the mediteranean region and the eurasian steppes, I'd be very surprised if there's any "pure" anything left in this world as far as races are concerned.
It is indeed no co-incidence that the enterprising "different kind of people" have an extraordinarily high rate of inventive success. Even today, immigrants founders account for a disproportionately high per centage of Silicon Valley success stories. Thinking "outside the box" really works; and the unique background of the particular individuals facilitates that kind of out-the-box thinking. That's part of what makes trade and migration work to the advantage of humanity.
BTW, Einstein did not invent the nuclear bomb. He wasn't even a nuclear physicist. He did however have a role in convincing the war time US government to invest what at the time was an enormous sum of money into the Manhatten project. Manhatten project itself did indeed have a roster that read like a who's who of immigrant scientists, both Jewish and non-Jewish, many of whom were run out of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy due to the wanton racialistic policies of those countries.