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Rights, Property, and State

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Stephen replied on Sat, Aug 1 2009 9:41 PM

hashem:

@Stephen Forde,

Off the top of your head, what have you by Murray Rothbard? Maybe I haven't read more than you, but I think I've read enough by him to get a feel for the basis of his arguments.

For me, its:

The Ethics of Liberty 5 times
For a New Liberty 6 times
What has Government Done to Our Money 2 times
The Case for a 100% Gold Dollar 2 times
The Case Against the Fed
The first dozen pages from Economic Though Before Adam Smith
The first 10 chapters from the Concieved in Liberty volumes
The first 17 chapters of Man, Economy, State
At least 7 articles by him at LRC
Everything from the first page of his complete bibliography at Mises.org
2 essays from Egalitarianism as a Revolt against Nature and Other Essays

I have read more by him that I can't think of off the top of my head, but the list is what I've read by him only.

In Defense of Extreme Apriorism
Law, Property Rights, and Air Pollution
Praxeology: The Methodology of Austrian Economics
Statistics: Achilles’ Heel of Government
The New Banner Interview with Murray N. Rothbard
The Political Thought of Etienne de La Boetie by Murray N. Rothbard (Audio)
Anatomy of the State
How and How not to Desocialize
Intimidation by Rhetoric
Left and Right: The Prospects for Liberty
Man, Economy, and State    (chapters 1-11)
“Defense Services on the Free Market” Power and Market (chapter 1)
Nations by Consent: Decomposing the Nation-State
Rothbard’s Confidential Memorandom to the Volker Fund, “What is to be Done?” (Audio)
The Ethics of Liberty
The Spooner-Tucker Doctrine: an Economists View
Why be Libertarians?
Hutus vs. Tutsis
Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature
The Bringing Down of Liz Holtzman
Within a Month! The Bringing Down of Bobby Ray Inman
Saint Hillary and the Religious Left
On Resisting Evil
The Conspiracy Theory of History Revisited
The JFK Flap
Americas Most Persecuted Minority
The Menace of the Religious Left
National Self-Determination
The Death Wish of the Anarcho-Communists
‘Doing God’s Work’ in Somalia
‘Date Rape’ on Campus
Rape or ‘Rape’?
Exhume, Exhume, Or, Who Put the Arsenic in Rough and Ready’s Cherries?
Sports, Politics, and the Constitution
Guilt Sanctified
Max Lerner: Again?!
I Hate Max Lerner
Hoppephobia
The Great Women’s Liberation Issue: Setting It Straight
A Strategy for the Right
Frank Meyer and Sydney Hook
The Religious Right: Toward a Coalition
A New Strategy For Liberty
Right-Wing Populism
Pat Buchanan and the Menace Anti-Anti-Semitism
Education: Rethinking “Choice”
New York Politics’ 93
The Apotheosis of Tricky Dick
The New York Political Circus
Big-Government Libertarians
1996! The Morning Line
Notes on the Nintendo War
Why the War? The Kuwait Connection
Korean War Redux?
Invade the World
The Nationalities Question
Yugoslavian Breakup
Welcome, Slovenia!
“Tolerance,” or Manners?
Behind Waco
Kulturdampf!
From the Bench-Down With the De-e-e-fense
The Right to Kill, With Dignity?
Wichita Justice? On Denationalizing the Courts
Bobby Fisher: The Lynching of the Returning Hero
Fluoridation Revisited
Never Say “JAP”!
Some Reflections on the Olympics
The Evil Empire Strikes Back
Liberal Hysteria: The Mystery Explained
King Kristol
The Women/Ladies/Girls/Spoiled Brats of Mills
Marshall, Civil Rights, and the Court
Their Malcolm…And Mine
“Debauchery! Debauchery!” At Tailhook
Race! That Murray Book
The Clintonians: “Looking Like America”
Coping With the Inaugural
Is Clinton a Bastard?
Clintonian Ugly
PC Cinema: Psychobabble Gets Nasty
“Kid Lib” Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature and Other Essays
“Conservation in the Free Market” Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature and Other Essays

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hashem replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 1:19 AM

Stephen Forde:
In Defense of Extreme Apriorism [etc.]

Perfect! You are officially in a position to stop asking me questions like I know everything, and instead to start providing the answers.

I'm looking forward to your Rothbardian wisdom, sensei.

[edit: At least one was redundant, and you missed an important one: The Mantle of Science, so I'll give you an A flat. You are still certified to start answering more and stop expecting me to know all the answers. I think I am allowed to debate without knowing everything, especially given that I am at least still reading and learning.]

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. —Mark Twain
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Natural law or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis) is a theory that posits the existence of a law whose content is set by nature and that therefore has validity everywhere.[1] The phrase natural law is sometimes opposed to the positive law of a given political community, society, or nation-state, and thus can function as a standard by which to criticize that law. In natural law jurisprudence, on the other hand, the content of positive law cannot be known without some reference to the natural law (or something like it). Used in this way, natural law can be invoked to criticize decisions about the statutes, but less so to criticize the law itself. Some use natural law synonymously with natural justice or natural right (Latin ius naturale), although most contemporary political and legal theorists separate the two.

 

 

Kristine
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kskristinesmith:

Natural law or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis) is a theory that posits the existence of a law whose content is set by nature and that therefore has validity everywhere.[1] The phrase natural law is sometimes opposed to the positive law of a given political community, society, or nation-state, and thus can function as a standard by which to criticize that law. In natural law jurisprudence, on the other hand, the content of positive law cannot be known without some reference to the natural law (or something like it). Used in this way, natural law can be invoked to criticize decisions about the statutes, but less so to criticize the law itself. Some use natural law synonymously with natural justice or natural right (Latin ius naturale), although most contemporary political and legal theorists separate the two.

Excellent post!  That's why natural law of human nature is transparent, unlike the arbitrary laws of positivism.  They are transparent cause they are logical and open to each person by use of intellect.  The logical path to natural law conclusions is why they are unbiased.  There's definitely more to this, but I thought your post was very good and wanted to give honor to it.Yes

"Do not put out the fire of the spirit." 1The 5:19
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Rothbardian 'natural law' theorists isolate the functions of the 'mind' into several dichotomies.  Examples include the means/end dichotomy, the 'reason'/'emotion' dichotomy, the 'will'/'instinct' dichotomy, and the 'natural'/'unnatural' dichotomy.  Those Rothbardians also assert that reason can override 'instincts'.  Evolutionary psychology have countered this idea.

We will denote an 'instinct' as a hard-wired 'emotion' of the brain.  Some examples of 'instincts' include thirst, pain, hunger, and sex drive.  Without the feeling of thirst, humans have a decreased chance of survival because of possible dehydration.  Therefore, humans have evolved a trait that make themselves feel thirsty when their body dehydrates.

Why do most humans avoid suicide?  They avoid suicide because they have an 'instinct' to avoid death.  Almost all humans cannot override this 'instinct'.  If they can override it, then they would not exist.  Over human evolution, the death-avoidance gene has propagated to almost all living humans.  The use of 'reason' or 'intellect' cannot override this instinct.

'Emotions', 'instincts', 'passions', and desires precede 'intellect', 'reason', and 'logic'.  'Reason' cannot override the ultimate 'emotions' that precede it.  Indeed, some humans can sacrifice short-term pain for long-term happiness.  But that does not deny that pain and happiness are 'instincts'.

Besides humans, every organism has some sort of 'reason' that can modulate 'emotions'.  They can trade-off short-term pain for long-term happiness, and predict the expected 'emotions' into the future, just like humans. 

If dogs and cats do not 'reason' and only follow their 'instincts', then they cannot learn and memorize.  Organisms strictly limited to their 'instincts' only respond to reflexes, and cannot memorize or apply past experiences.  But we all know that most animals learn and memorize.  Therefore, they do 'reason' to a certain extent.

The Rothbardian 'natural law' theorists seem to be ignorant on evolutionary biology.

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Anarcho-Mercantilist:
The Rothbardian 'natural law' theorists seem to be ignorant on evolutionary biology.

you seem to be ignorant on just about everything you choose to speak about.

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Angurse replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 11:13 AM

Anarcho-Mercantilist:

We will denote an 'instinct' as a hard-wired emotion on the brain.  Some examples of instincts include thirst, pain, hunger, and sex drive.  Without the feeling of thirst, humans have a decreased chance of survival because of possible dehydration.  Therefore, humans have evolved a trait that make themselves feel thirsty when their body dehydrates.

Instinct is inborn behaviour, not emotion. Pain is centripetal experience, not an instinct. Thirst is a craving for fluids, to fulfill biological needs. These feelings certainly result in instincts (i.e. avoidance of pain, drinking without being taught how, etc...) but aren't instincts themselves.

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Why do most humans avoid suicide?  They avoid suicide because they have an instinct to avoid death.  Almost all humans cannot override this instinct.  If they can override it, then they would not exist.  Over human evolution, the death-avoidance gene has propagated to almost all living humans.  The use of 'reason' or 'intellect' cannot override this instinct.

How is that provable, couldn't people simply be death-neutral, where reason leads them to avoid death (as its beneficial) while emotion make them less weary of it (crime of passion, people do stupid things for love, etc...)?

 

 

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scineram replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 11:21 AM

Lying is also bad according to natural law. Should it be illegal?

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scineram:
Lying is also bad according to natural law. Should it be illegal?

 

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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scineram replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 11:28 AM

Did hashem not say murder is bad according to natural law? What is the difference between lying and murder?

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hashem replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 12:08 PM

scineram:

Did hashem not say murder is bad according to natural law? What is the difference between lying and murder?

Murder = humans end. Lying = humans don't end.

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. —Mark Twain
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hashem:

scineram:

Did hashem not say murder is bad according to natural law? What is the difference between lying and murder?

Murder = humans end. Lying = humans don't end.

Murder = humans end. Theft = humans don't end.

Therefore, "theft is not bad."

(I had defined 'theft' as seizing property from another without his consent.)

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scineram:
Lying is also bad according to natural law.
No, it isn't. Not in the moral sense/rights violation sense.

 

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scineram:
Did hashem not say murder is bad according to natural law? What is the difference between lying and murder?

If you cannot tell the difference between murder and lying then no wonder you are having trouble understanding natural law.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Juan replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 1:32 PM
Lying is indeed morally bad. Doesn't mean it should be made illegal though.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Lying is agent relative.

Is lying to save a life truly bad?

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Juan replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 1:40 PM
Murder = humans end. Lying = humans don't end.
Actually, if you want to pursue that line of reasoning, you could argue that if everybody lied things wouldn't work that well. You ask : Did you fill the tanks of the airliner ? Yes I lie. So your plane crashes in midair.

You can't act successfully if you lack the proper information. If you rely on other people in order to get information, and they lie to you then you can't act successfully.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 1:43 PM
AC:
Lying is agent relative.
Everything can be seen as agent-relative ...
Is lying to save a life truly bad?
lying per se is bad but in that particular case the benefits far outweigh any possible harm.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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hashem replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 1:43 PM

Murder in its fullest expression, or taken to its final conclusion, means the end of humans. All humans murder each other, they cease to exist.

Theft, if taken to its logical conclusion, means each person steals each other person, which means nobody is allowed (or even able) to do anything, which means the end of humans.

That is how we know, or at least part of the grounds for, the fact of, and therefore the natural law of, and therefore the right of self-ownership. I.E. Humans cease to exist if they do not own themselves; or conversely, because we own ourselves (because each person does not steal each person), we are able to do things, i.e. perpetuate our existence.

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. —Mark Twain
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Juan:
Everything can be seen as agent-relative ...

Not language or natural rights.

Juan:
lying per se is bad but in that particular case the benefits far outweigh any possible harm.

hence the agent-relativism.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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hashem:
Theft, if taken to its logical conclusion, means each person steals each other person, which means nobody is allowed (or even able) to do anything, which means the end of humans.

You are being absolutist, because you only allow two options--either Lockean theft or no theft.  How about theft limited to capital goods only (i.e. Proudhonian usufruct of capital goods)?  Humans will not live as prosperously, but still will exist.

You are doing the slippery slope fallacy by equivocating a tiny bit of theft with the loss of life.

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hashem replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 3:04 PM

The logical conclusion is not a tiny bit of theft. The principal against theft, the natural law that theft is bad, accounts for all scenarios; it is universal, so we consider the universal application.

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hashem:

The logical conclusion is not a tiny bit of theft. The principal against theft, the natural law that theft is bad, accounts for all scenarios; it is universal, so we consider the universal application.

Determining if an action violates 'property rights' begs the question.  You must list all the scenarios that violate and that does not violate 'property rights' in order to define 'property rights'.  For example:

Setting self-defense aside, libertarians classify these actions as violating 'property rights':

  • killing someone without his consent
  • seizing someone's property without consent
  • forcibly taxing someone or any business entity
  • vandalizing houses, shops, and vehicles
  • restricting one to smoke heroin and cannabis
  • forcing employers to not discriminate employees based on race and sex
  • defrauding customers by not giving them their purchases
  • extorting persons to obtain their money or property
  • banning or restricting trade between any two individuals
  • using tariffs, value-added taxes, or sales taxes on traded goods or services
  • forcing medical practitioners, lawyers, accountants, and other 'professionals' to obtain a license
  • mandating all businesses and individuals to comply with safety codes, zoning laws, and quality inspection
  • requiring all employers to comply with minimum wage laws and other wage controls
  • requiring all sellers to set a certain price
  • forcing all children to go to school or vocational training
  • forcing citizens to speak a certain language or dialect
  • building roads or monuments by eminent domain
  • setting standards which force all individuals within a specific occupation to comply with
  • interfering with someone's radio frequency when broadcasting television or calling someone
  • violating trade secrets
  • blocking someone's farm from adequate sunlight
  • producing atomic bombs
  • dumping one billion tons of carbon dioxide into the air per day

Setting self-defense aside, libertarians do not classify these actions as violating 'property rights':

  • blackmailing someone
  • saying racial slurs and politically incorrect speech
  • distributing pornography and drugs, including heroin
  • prostitution
  • gambling
  • social ostracism
  • boycotting someone or a business entity
  • defamation, slander, and libel
  • insider trading
  • buying and selling within the underground economy

So determining if an action 'violates' property a 'tiny bit' or not a 'tiny bit' depends on the definition of 'property rights'.  Ethical apriorism cannot deduce whether or not if these specific actions violate 'property rights', unless you define whether each instance violates 'property rights' or not.

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Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Ethical apriorism cannot deduce whether or not if these specific actions violate 'property rights', unless you define whether each instance violates 'property rights' or not.

Translation: We cannot say if these actions violate property rights until we say whether or not these actions violate property rights. The sheer brilliance of this argument astounds me to the point of desiring an intellectual quest to reach the highest summit in my area and ponder upon its cliff top.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Determining if an action violates 'property rights' begs the question
No, it doesn't.

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Knight_of_BAAWA:

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Determining if an action violates 'property rights' begs the question
No, it doesn't.

Does the production of nuclear weapons violate property rights?  Rothbard in the Ethics of Liberty says that it does, because it constitutes as a threat to life.  Some will not define this scenario as violating property rights because it has not already killed people.

Does blocking someone's farm from adequate sunlight violate the farmer's property rights?  Some will say yes, but some will say no because no person can own photons.

Does emitting tons of carbon dioxide into the air constitute a violation of property rights?  Some will agree, because it can cause other person's plants to die.  Some will disagree, because "air is a public good."

These examples suggest that people can interpret 'property rights' in many different ways, so it begs the question to find a single 'correct' interpretation.  Unless you specifically define your own interpretation of it.

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Anarcho-Mercantilist:

Does the production of nuclear weapons violate property rights?  Rothbard in the Ethics of Liberty says that it does, because it constitutes as a threat to life.  Some will not define this scenario as violating property rights because it has not already killed people.

Does blocking someone's farm from adequate sunlight violate the farmer's property rights?  Some will say yes, but some will say no because no person can own photons.

Does emitting tons of carbon dioxide into the air constitute a violation of property rights?  Some will agree, because it can cause other person's plants to die.  Some will disagree, because "air is a public good."

These examples suggest that people can interpret 'property rights' in many different ways, so it begs the question to find a single 'correct' interpretation.  Unless you specifically define your own interpretation of it.

So you are mad that libertarianism has diversity yet when a libertarian postulates natural law as objective you scoff at that too? Truly this is astounding.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Anarchist Cain:

Anarcho-Mercantilist:

Does the production of nuclear weapons violate property rights?  Rothbard in the Ethics of Liberty says that it does, because it constitutes as a threat to life.  Some will not define this scenario as violating property rights because it has not already killed people.

Does blocking someone's farm from adequate sunlight violate the farmer's property rights?  Some will say yes, but some will say no because no person can own photons.

Does emitting tons of carbon dioxide into the air constitute a violation of property rights?  Some will agree, because it can cause other person's plants to die.  Some will disagree, because "air is a public good."

These examples suggest that people can interpret 'property rights' in many different ways, so it begs the question to find a single 'correct' interpretation.  Unless you specifically define your own interpretation of it.

So you are mad that libertarianism has diversity yet when a libertarian postulates natural law as objective you scoff at that too? Truly this is astounding.

Some people will interpret 'property rights' as the Proudhonian use-and-occupancy of capital goods.  Some will interpret 'property rights' as the Tuckerite prohibition of absentee ownership of land. 

Why does Rothbardian 'natural law' claim to disallow the Proudhonian and Tuckerite interpretations of 'property rights' while allowing the three examples in the quote? 

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Juan replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 4:58 PM
Well, maybe proudhon ( a socialist) and tucker (kinda socialist and confused too) are wrong ?

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan:
Well, maybe proudhon ( a socialist) and tucker (kinda socialist and confused too) are wrong ?

Why they are wrong?  Because they are 'unnatural', or because their economics produces bad consequences, such as the distorted allocation of resources?

Rothbardian 'natural law' is based on 'economic science' and is consequentialist in a sense.

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Anarcho-Mercantilist:

Some people will interpret 'property rights' as the Proudhonian use-and-occupancy of capital goods.  Some will interpret 'property rights' as the Tuckerite prohibition of absentee ownership of land. 

Why does Rothbardian 'natural law' claim to disallow the Proudhonian and Tuckerite interpretations of 'property rights' while allowing the three examples in the quote? 

Big text doesn't help. As I explained to you, Proudhon only allows for personal possessions but not land or capital for they are commons. Why is one allowed to own possessions yet not land? Possessions come from the commons directly or indirectly. 

Concerning Tucker, I am not familiar with his system but from what I can deduce by the name it seems that one cannot own property where one is not stationed. How are we to trade goods across oceans? Does Tucker propose we just become self-sufficient or only trade with those in our vicinity? Is there such a difference between owning things from afar and owning things near?

Concerning nuclear bombs, carbon emissions and blocking sunlight:

Nuclear bombs: From what I can deduce concerning nuclear war from Rothbard's For a New Liberty on the chapter concerning foreign policy and war, Rothbard was against the use of nuclear arms because they are indiscriminate killers of innocents. Now I have not heard him say ' Let's kill everyone who tries to make a nuclear bomb or at least lock them up.' From what I can deduce, he used the method of persuasion as a means to achieve his ends.

Carbon emissions: Concerning this 'dilemma' it is a matter of property rights in the sense that smog, slug, toxic waste etc has creep into my land thus transgressing my property rights. I have a right to seek compensation for the damages to my land which were not of my consent against the individual who did such a deed.

Blocking Sunlight: This is actually a Walter Block issue with his famous circle argument. It is not of Rothbard and since I don't follow the works of Block and there are those who do in this group, I feel no need to answer it.

 

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Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Rothbardian 'natural law' is based on 'economic science' and is consequentialist in a sense.

Rothbard's natural law is purely Aristotelian.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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hashem replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 6:11 PM

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does the production of nuclear weapons violate property rights?  Rothbard in the Ethics of Liberty says that it does, because it constitutes as a threat to life.

I have read TEoL 5 times and Rothbard certainly does not contend that the production of a nuclear weapon necessarily violates the property rights of anyone, no less everyone. Besides, who's to say it wasn't built to be launched defensively at aggressive space-invaders? Or that it won't rest in a museum as an example of the atrocities of mankind? Or that it won't be launched for profit at targets in outer space to paying viewers?

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. —Mark Twain
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Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Determining if an action violates 'property rights' begs the question
Knight_of_BAAWA:
No, it doesn't.
Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does the production of nuclear weapons violate property rights?
It can if we're talking about a lot of people in a small area.

 

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does blocking someone's farm from adequate sunlight violate the farmer's property rights?
What are you trying to get at---the fact that you don't know what begging the question actually means?

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Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does the production of nuclear weapons violate property rights? 

No.

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Rothbard in the Ethics of Liberty says that it does, because it constitutes as a threat to life.

So does every physical object on earth.

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does blocking someone's farm from adequate sunlight violate the farmer's property rights?

That is for a court to decide.  The question is too broad.

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does emitting tons of carbon dioxide into the air constitute a violation of property rights?

Does farting a lot violate a violation of property rights?  No.  Neither does emitting carbon dioxide into the air.

 

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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Angurse replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 7:02 PM

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does the production of nuclear weapons violate property rights?  Rothbard in the Ethics of Liberty says that it does, because it constitutes as a threat to life.  Some will not define this scenario as violating property rights because it has not already killed people.

I haven't read TEOL in over 2 years but I believe Rothbard condemned the use of nuclear weapons, the weapons themselves aren't any violation.

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does blocking someone's farm from adequate sunlight violate the farmer's property rights?  Some will say yes, but some will say no because no person can own photons.

If they used the land for farming before you built the skyscraper next-door then yes, similar to the railroad scenario.

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does emitting tons of carbon dioxide into the air constitute a violation of property rights?  Some will agree, because it can cause other person's plants to die.  Some will disagree, because "air is a public good."

If it ruins one's property, like killing plants, than obviously yes.

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
These examples suggest that people can interpret 'property rights' in many different ways, so it begs the question to find a single 'correct' interpretation.  Unless you specifically define your own interpretation of it.

You certainly can, but consistent libertarians shouldn't.

"I am an aristocrat. I love liberty, I hate equality."
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Angurse:

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does blocking someone's farm from adequate sunlight violate the farmer's property rights?  Some will say yes, but some will say no because no person can own photons.

If they used the land for farming before you built the skyscraper next-door then yes, similar to the railroad scenario.

No, building a skyscraper would not constitute a violation of property rights in this scenario.  I am sure the crops would still get plenty of light, even with a skyscraper.  In fact, it may even help the crops.  This is why I say the question is too broad.

Angurse:

Anarcho-Mercantilist:
Does emitting tons of carbon dioxide into the air constitute a violation of property rights?  Some will agree, because it can cause other person's plants to die.  Some will disagree, because "air is a public good."

If it ruins one's property, like killing plants, than obviously yes.

Again, his question is too vague.  What exactly is "tons of carbon dioxide"?

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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Angurse replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 8:53 PM

Spideynw:
No, building a skyscraper would not constitute a violation of property rights in this scenario.  I am sure the crops would still get plenty of light, even with a skyscraper.  In fact, it may even help the crops.  This is why I say the question is too broad.

I think his point was that they wouldn't get adequate sunlight, the skyscraper was just my example, consider the giant movable disk, that could block out the sun from The Simpsons - surely that would be a violation.

Spideynw:
Again, his question is too vague.  What exactly is "tons of carbon dioxide"?

The exact amount doesn't really matter, whatever is enough to kill anothers plants.

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Spideynw replied on Sun, Aug 2 2009 10:03 PM

Angurse:

Spideynw:
No, building a skyscraper would not constitute a violation of property rights in this scenario.  I am sure the crops would still get plenty of light, even with a skyscraper.  In fact, it may even help the crops.  This is why I say the question is too broad.

I think his point was that they wouldn't get adequate sunlight, the skyscraper was just my example, consider the giant movable disk, that could block out the sun from The Simpsons - surely that would be a violation.

Which is why his example is ludicrous.  There is no giant movable disk that you can stick over someone's property to block out the light...

Angurse:

Spideynw:
Again, his question is too vague.  What exactly is "tons of carbon dioxide"?

The exact amount doesn't really matter, whatever is enough to kill anothers plants.

There is not a single business on earth that I know of that could emit that much.  So the question is just ridiculous.

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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Anarcho-Mercantilist:

hashem:

Anarcho-Mercantilist:

hashem:
When we speak of someone having a right, we mean that it is impermissible to use aggression to prevent him from exercising that right.

This sounds almost circular.  The phrase "impermissible to use aggression to prevent him from exercising that right" seems redundant.  That simply means that "all rights are non-aggressive."

I was describing the nature of rights. The important characteristic of a right is that it is wrong to use aggression to prevent someone from exercising it. This does not mean that "all rights are non-aggressive."

How did you define the term "aggression"?  You probably had defined the term "aggression" to constitute the following actions:

  • Killing innocent people without consent
  • Seizing property from someone without consent
  • Enslaving people
  • Vandalizing homes
  • Taxing people without the option to secede
  • Regulating people's lives

For example, when you say that a person has a 'right to free speech', that means that they can say anything they want without suffering from aggression.  However, because you had defined the term 'aggression' as the above list, the person that has a 'right to free speech' cannot have their income taxed, and lives regulated.  Therefore, you had defined that all rights are necessarily synonymous to 'non-aggression'.

Contrastingly, a "right to regulate people's lives" is self-contradictiory by definition.  Because you had defined 'rights' as necessarily synonymous to non-aggression, and that regulations are aggressive, you had contradicted yourself.

'All rights are necessarily non-aggressive', at least according to your definition of 'rights' and 'aggression'.

Roderick Long has proven that only the 'right to be not aggressed' exists.

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