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Do gangs count as private defense agencies that have gone "rogue"?

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Wanderer Posted: Wed, Jul 29 2009 9:24 AM

I was thinking about the idea of private defense the other day, and got to thinking about gangs.  They often provide protection services (albeit, involuntarily, like a government). 

Does my line of thinking make any sense?

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Conza88 replied on Wed, Jul 29 2009 9:28 AM

Cam Nedland:

I was thinking about the idea of private defense the other day, and got to thinking about gangs.  They often provide protection services (albeit, involuntarily, like a government). 

Does my line of thinking make any sense?

Then it's not exactly protection is it? More like extortion.. I won't shoot you in the face, if you give me money... "Your money, or your life!"

"Gang of thieves writ large"....

 

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Natalie replied on Wed, Jul 29 2009 9:37 AM

Cam Nedland:

I was thinking about the idea of private defense the other day, and got to thinking about gangs.  They often provide protection services (albeit, involuntarily, like a government). 

Does my line of thinking make any sense?

They're only successful on a large scale because government restricts our means of self-defense, and criminals also often bribe the officials.

I don't hear about mass extortion happening in Texas...

 

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no;i dont see how they have any relation to private defense agencies, only that they are 'organisations'. thats a pretty broad genre.

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

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Bogart replied on Wed, Jul 29 2009 12:47 PM

Private as in Non-Governmental, YES, Voluntary, NO!!!

A gang (Government, Punks or Mafia) is not a legitimate protection agency as these organizations use force to keep their "customers" paying for their protection.  A true protection agency would not have the ability to force customer to pay their charges.  Consumers would have the ability to pick their particular agency, a different one or none at all.

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the mafia dont run any kind of protection service. dont confuse a racket with a service.

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Stranger replied on Wed, Jul 29 2009 1:02 PM

To the extent that they provide their own protection against the government, they are engaged in self-defense and need to have an organization that produces security for their underlings, such as drug traffickers and so on.

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Spideynw replied on Wed, Jul 29 2009 1:13 PM

nirgrahamUK:

the mafia dont run any kind of protection service. dont confuse a racket with a service.

As far as I know they do.  They "protect" businesses from other extortion groups.

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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before i comment further can you enlighten me...

did you "speechmark" the word protect, to highlight that that is what they are doing?, or rather to cast doubt on the veracity of that notion.?

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Spideynw replied on Thu, Jul 30 2009 12:39 PM

nirgrahamUK:

before i comment further can you enlighten me...

did you "speechmark" the word protect, to highlight that that is what they are doing?, or rather to cast doubt on the veracity of that notion.?

I speechmarked it because how can one really consider it protection when they are extorting them in the first place?  But in a way, they do protect them.

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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its a protection racket because the victim is always a victim to the extent that he has a erlationship with the racketeer.

he is simply given a choice how he is victimized. whether it be buy giving up extortion money, or whether it be buy having his person and other property aggressed against violently.

 

these are the only 2 cases, as far as i can tell. you pay up and are victim that way. or you dont pay up and are victim the other. i dont see how being victimized constitutes being protected. perhaps any bully that bullies you is protecting you so long as other bullies see it and avoid coming up and beating you themselves because they dont want the risk of fighting with the bully who got there first. protection. racket.

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Natalie replied on Thu, Jul 30 2009 3:33 PM

In other words, not too different from the "legitimate" governments, aren't they? Personally, I'd take gangs over government as they're not interested in telling me how to raise my kids.

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Natalie:

In other words, not too different from the "legitimate" governments, aren't they? Personally, I'd take gangs over government as they're not interested in telling me how to raise my kids.

I balk at that remark because gangs actively recruit children.

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Natalie replied on Thu, Jul 30 2009 4:34 PM

So?

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Natalie:

So?

Didn't you imply, or maybe I'm wrong, that the government will tell a person how to raise their children, but a gang won't?  I was pointing out how a gang does this too.  Governments and criminal gangs are the same.  Gangs even rule geographies and are given legitimacy by the locals.  Even the proximity between a street gang and government is considering how far the intrusion by either party is in the lives of those that are not actively in either criminal entity.

Smile

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Natalie replied on Thu, Jul 30 2009 7:09 PM

I've never heard of a gang that spends their stolen money on setting up public schools and forcing people to send kids to the said schools where they're exposed to the education of a dubious quality, indoctrination, comulsory activities, vaccines, mind-altering drugs. Oh, and how about your kids calling gang's sponsored social workers on you because you make them do their homework? I'd like to see that happening Wink

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Natalie:

I've never heard of a gang that spends their stolen money on setting up public schools and forcing people to send kids to the said schools where they're exposed to the education of a dubious quality, indoctrination, comulsory activities, vaccines, mind-altering drugs. Oh, and how about your kids calling gang's sponsored social workers on you because you make them do their homework? I'd like to see that happening Wink

Criminal gangs force kids into the streets and coerce them into criminal activities.  I worked with gang members at a youth placement facility.  Their indoctrination isn't as sophisticated as the government, but I'm sure if they could print money out of thin air and coerce people into that the tools at their disposal would expand.  Street gangs are small governments in the making, but the bigger government called the State usually keeps these smaller criminal gangs from expanding but in some countries, I hear Mexico, criminal gangs actually have access to the Mexican governments coercive power.  Sometimes I hear people wonder who's really in the charge in Mexico.  The politicians or the criminal gangs that supposedly emerged from the streets.  They're the same, one has more power than the other usually proportional to size.

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Spideynw replied on Thu, Jul 30 2009 9:15 PM

wilderness:
Criminal gangs force kids into the streets and coerce them into criminal activities.  I worked with gang members at a youth placement facility.  Their indoctrination isn't as sophisticated as the government, but I'm sure if they could print money out of thin air and coerce people into that the tools at their disposal would expand.  Street gangs are small governments in the making, but the bigger government called the State usually keeps these smaller criminal gangs from expanding but in some countries, I hear Mexico, criminal gangs actually have access to the Mexican governments coercive power.  Sometimes I hear people wonder who's really in the charge in Mexico.  The politicians or the criminal gangs that supposedly emerged from the streets.  They're the same, one has more power than the other usually proportional to size.

The only real difference being that people recognize that the extortion being committed by gangs is wrong, whereas the extortion being committed by government is OK.  Or said another way, government has an air of legitimacy, whereas other gangs generally do not.

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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Natalie replied on Fri, Jul 31 2009 8:26 AM

wilderness:
Criminal gangs force kids into the streets and coerce them into criminal activities.  I worked with gang members at a youth placement facility.  Their indoctrination isn't as sophisticated as the government, but I'm sure if they could print money out of thin air and coerce people into that the tools at their disposal would expand.  Street gangs are small governments in the making, but the bigger government called the State usually keeps these smaller criminal gangs from expanding but in some countries, I hear Mexico, criminal gangs actually have access to the Mexican governments coercive power.  Sometimes I hear people wonder who's really in the charge in Mexico.  The politicians or the criminal gangs that supposedly emerged from the streets.  They're the same, one has more power than the other usually proportional to size.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning gang violence in any shape or form. But when it comes to mass murder and robbery, gangs don't even come close to the official governments. As has been said, murder one person and you're a criminal, murder a million and you're a politician.

From personal experience: I never had been troubled by the mafia even when I lived in the times of the Russian "gangster paradise". Government, however, was everywhere and impossible to avoid. Businessmen who had dealings with the organized crime (pretty much everyone in that times) swear that gangsters in general were much more reasonable and less greedy than government officials who always looked for an opportunity to coerce a bribe or two. When government regulations hindered the market mafia provided the ways to circumvent them and allow businesses to function.

These days, much of the income of international crime comes from voluntary transactions in forbidden or heavily regulated industries (drugs, prostitution, guns, etc.).

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Spideynw:

The only real difference being that people recognize that the extortion being committed by gangs is wrong, whereas the extortion being committed by government is OK.  Or said another way, government has an air of legitimacy, whereas other gangs generally do not.

Agreed, except sometimes gangs are looked up to by the youth.  But my "exception" though is admittedly founded upon a lack knowledge on my part, though I have some it is not absolute by any means.

Maybe adults too, but I don't know about adults that much so I can't say one way or another.  The youth that I worked with about 85% of them went right back into the gang life.  It's mainly due to protection factors.  There's always another gang around that would beat up a person, youth or not, and, especially the youth, but maybe near as well adults too.  I didn't work with adults so I'm not as well aware of their influence on other adults safety that may or may not be in a gang.  But youth that live in certain geographical regions desire protection and they don't get it from the cops so the fights in the streets are usually self-defense or expansion of power oriented.  For a youth to be caught up in that power play, to pick one side or another is usually a life or death choice.  They can't look weak - unless somebody is actively stronger than they.  It was a common awareness where I worked to notice how the youth calmed down and they felt secure when certain staff worked as compared to other staff.  The weak staff usually had a bad night and had to call for back up from other units.  The youth increasingly through the day or night would have to show they are tough to make sure none of the other youth would try anything.  Nobody would have to do anything.  Nobody would even be aggressive.  Their demonstrations towards each other were driven by fear and it was more for show, but if somebody took the other person too seriously then physical aggression could happen.  They would say that to each other often, "Oh, you're taking me too seriously."  They knew what they were doing.  They have to look tough so nobody would dare mess with them.  I think the difference is more size proportional, but I think your still correct and there is the legitimacy factor that the government is able to receive I think to a deeper extent than a street gang.  But to what extent the legitimacy is present due to fear of coercion or out-right legitimacy in a street gang or government is also linked with the tools at the disposal of the government.  Distortion and fraud is very active in a government from anywhere to propaganda in which the government though they cause the problems (unknowing to most people) the government is actively displays how they are the saviors and the government life-boat situations (which the government actively rids liberty, but says it's for a greater good).  And of course the government prints all this money out of thin air and can expand on it's tools and thus illegitimate powers.

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Natalie:

wilderness:
Criminal gangs force kids into the streets and coerce them into criminal activities.  I worked with gang members at a youth placement facility.  Their indoctrination isn't as sophisticated as the government, but I'm sure if they could print money out of thin air and coerce people into that the tools at their disposal would expand.  Street gangs are small governments in the making, but the bigger government called the State usually keeps these smaller criminal gangs from expanding but in some countries, I hear Mexico, criminal gangs actually have access to the Mexican governments coercive power.  Sometimes I hear people wonder who's really in the charge in Mexico.  The politicians or the criminal gangs that supposedly emerged from the streets.  They're the same, one has more power than the other usually proportional to size.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning gang violence in any shape or form. But when it comes to mass murder and robbery, gangs don't even come close to the official governments. As has been said, murder one person and you're a criminal, murder a million and you're a politician.

I completely agree.  That's why I included "proportional to size".  I really do see the government as a criminal gang that has been able to pull off a huge fraud in millions of people.  It's a whole other level of gang activity that makes street gangs look like child's play, in a sense.

Natalie:

From personal experience: I never had been troubled by the mafia even when I lived in the times of the Russian "gangster paradise". Government, however, was everywhere and impossible to avoid. Businessmen who had dealings with the organized crime (pretty much everyone in that times) swear that gangsters in general were much more reasonable and less greedy than government officials who always looked for an opportunity to coerce a bribe or two. When government regulations hindered the market mafia provided the ways to circumvent them and allow businesses to function.

I think there is a difference between the mafia and a street gang.  The latter tend to be very brutish.  The mafia isn't as brutish which allows organization to develop.  The street gang members I worked with were constantly watching their backs even from their own and usually each day was spent with friends having to redevelop their friendship, sometimes as if they had to start all over again each morning with each other.  Not a physically coercive sense, but in retying their friendship making sure they aren't trying to back-stab each other.  They read each others actions to such a point it took a very long time to gain the keen eye that they have in noticed each others subtle movements in how they behave towards each other.  Eye movements, who they walked with and who they didn't, etc...  Their relationships were very weak.  I see the mafia having stronger bonds of relationships with each other built on a greater degree of trust than a street gang.  Politicians build even a greater degree of trust and their behaviors and ways of keeping fraud hidden is probably a mastering of the street gang art.  Politicians took the art to a whole new level, much more than even the mafia.  The mafia seems to be on a level between the two.  But I don't know enough about the mafia, there's stories on how they are actually good, but I don't know to what extent.

Natalie:

These days, much of the income of international crime comes from voluntary transactions in forbidden or heavily regulated industries (drugs, prostitution, guns, etc.).

I wouldn't see anything wrong with these types of dealings.  As the saying goes, even the mafia thought killing was bad for business.  I think they try to avoid it as much as possible, but I'm sure there's a wide scale as to which mafia or international crime entities are more libertarian lawful and which ones not. Smile

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