Hey guys, I've been reading on Mises for a while now and I agree with a lot of the principles that the Austrian School expounds. I was wondering if anyone here knows of a site or organization that is dedicated to creating a centralized community of people fed up with the inefficiency and pocket-lining of the government in order to focus efforts and political action with the principle of "strength in numbers - focused."
If such an organization does not yet exist, is there anyone here who is interested in starting a community with this plan in mind? As far as what can be done with such an organization, the first things that come to mind are mass boycotts of oppressive products and political decisions.
I'm tired of theorizing and arguing. I'm ready to get the wheel turning.
I will be checking this thread for responses but if some would like to email me my email is chris.greentown@gmail.com
Best regards,
Chris
Do you have something in mind like the Free State Project in New Hampshire?
"Do you have something in mind like the Free State Project in New Hampshire?"
No, nobody has to move with this. People can live anywhere although originally I think it will only be applicable to the U.S. I'm thinking it will be done primarily on the web. It's purpose is to organize people from all over to get people to focus their efforts to certain goals of the community (which are decided upon by the community based on their immediate importance.) If there is a large group of people with one focused goal, I believe we can see a lot of change very quickly.
So does anyone know of any website/organization like this?
Chris: It's purpose is to organize people from all over to get people to focus their efforts to certain goals of the community (which are decided upon by the community based on their immediate importance.) If there is a large group of people with one focused goal, I believe we can see a lot of change very quickly.
Careful, people around here will start calling you a commie if you keep up lingo like that.
Chris:So does anyone know of any website/organization like this?
You could try Craigslist, or if you'd rather hitch on to an existing movement, Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty, or Young Americans for Liberty.
I checked out Campaign for Liberty and Young Americans for Liberty and they aren't what I'm looking for. They seem more directed towards working through the corrupt political system that's in place which I think is more inefficient and doesn't quite get to the root.
Let me clear some things up. Primarily this will be a website forum where the community will gather. The reason for this is that the internet is accessible just about anywhere these days and this makes it so people don't have to travel or act anywhere but where they are. The community, through the forum, will discuss large-scale matters of importance that either directly or indirectly affect the community. If a certain matter, through intelligent research, shows itself to be important to the community, a short or long-term goal will be created and bannered for the community to try to attain. The progress that is made towards the goal will be tracked by members of the community to reinforce the commitment of the group, help to motivate them further and attract more people to obtain more influence.
The most general credo of the group will be to counter-act large-scale injustice. In order to combat large-scale injustice, it requires a large-scale tool - in this instance the community. If there are no large-scale injustices to counter, the community will be inactive.
Because I couldn't find any communities that fit these descriptions, I decided to go ahead and start a facebook group. This is a small and humble start, much like a seed of a great redwood tree, but in time, if its purpose stays true, it will grow to great heights. I chose the name "The Justice League." I like the connotations it has with heroes and righteousness. Here's the link if anyone is interested:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?sk=2361831622
Chris: Hey guys, I've been reading on Mises for a while now and I agree with a lot of the principles that the Austrian School expounds. I was wondering if anyone here knows of a site or organization that is dedicated to creating a centralized community of people fed up with the inefficiency and pocket-lining of the government in order to focus efforts and political action with the principle of "strength in numbers - focused." If such an organization does not yet exist, is there anyone here who is interested in starting a community with this plan in mind? As far as what can be done with such an organization, the first things that come to mind are mass boycotts of oppressive products and political decisions. I'm tired of theorizing and arguing. I'm ready to get the wheel turning. I will be checking this thread for responses but if some would like to email me my email is chris.greentown@gmail.com Best regards, Chris
Chris, I recommend you turn your energies away from politics and toward business and education.
First, educate yourself. On the LvMI website, you can educate yourself with the tools to educate others. This has a "multiplier effect" since you can learn to enlighten many people, who will spread the ideas of sound economics they learned from you to their friends in casual conversation, and so on. As Murray Rothbard, Lew Rockwell and others have expounded, the real battle is a battle of ideas - the most important idea is the idea that we need a territorial monopoly on law to prevent the Hobbesian state of nature (Hoppe calls this the Hobbesian myth and identifies it as the single most important founding myth of the modern state). Learn about customary law, kritarchy, English common law and the contrast between these natural order law systems and the modern centralized statutory law systems which are based on the Roman model of imperial dictate. In so doing, you will be preparing yourself to challenge the root of all evil and disseminate these ideas to your friends and associates.
Second, turn your energies to productivity and business. The more productive we are, the greater the incentive we all have to enforce strong property rights and the weaker the State becomes. The State relies, in large part, on the power of rhetoric to persuade people to act in its interests instead of their own. By acting in your own interests to the best of your ability, you disempower the State. Further, you set an example of self-reliance to your neighbors and associates, which has a multiplier effect. Eschew cartelization and second-hand aggression through lobbying the government. Study how to increase your productivity and your income, study how to build your wealth and shelter it from State plunder by any prudent means at your disposal. Teach others what you have done (prudently). In so doing, you will have engaged in "originary secession", that is, a resolution to only obey the State's dictates out of prudence, not conviction.
Above all, forget participation in the political process unless you mean to displace evil - what I mean, is to fill a political post so that a liberty-hater will not be able to fill it and use it to exploit the public. This is what Ron Paul is doing and should be a central strategy of any "libertarian" political party... forget pushing an agenda, just fill the posts with "crash dummies" who will simply reduce the power and influence of the ruling elite by refusing to use their vote to further and legitimize their interests. Remember, the State is but a gang of bandits write large (Rothbard). Political participation is like joining the Mafia... no matter how pure you were when you started, you will be corrupted. Just say No.
Clayton -
I guess what I'm doing could be considered political in the sense that almost anything can be considered political. There won't be any donations involved to fund the organization though - none will be needed. I'm by no means trying to get a "party" going or get someone elected to some public office - I feel like that is a waste of time and many people are already doing this. What I think the value in this community/website will be is the growth of enlightened self interest in individuals. By this organization's very nature and existence it is a means of educating people to their own value and power as an individual acting in an economy.
We are all "voting" with each and every dollar that we spend - this is not contested. If we form some kind of community or organization (like I'm proposing here) we can magnify the influence of our "votes" by channeling (or purposely avoiding) them towards certain goals that were agreed upon based on their importance to the organization. If this organization manages to eliminate all large-scale injustices, then the organization will become inactive. I don't really see where corruption can occur because no money is involved, no one is getting paid and it's for everybody - nobody is excluded and nobody is above or below any other.
Certain goals could be the avoidance of certain products that are heavily subsidized by the government (many processed food products fall into this category), the avoidance of products that are the result of unjust/unethical business practices, etc. It could be looked at like an all-encompassing consumer report with goals.
Chris: I guess what I'm doing could be considered political in the sense that almost anything can be considered political. There won't be any donations involved to fund the organization though - none will be needed. I'm by no means trying to get a "party" going or get someone elected to some public office - I feel like that is a waste of time and many people are already doing this. What I think the value in this community/website will be is the growth of enlightened self interest in individuals. By this organization's very nature and existence it is a means of educating people to their own value and power as an individual acting in an economy. We are all "voting" with each and every dollar that we spend - this is not contested. If we form some kind of community or organization (like I'm proposing here) we can magnify the influence of our "votes" by channeling (or purposely avoiding) them towards certain goals that were agreed upon based on their importance to the organization. If this organization manages to eliminate all large-scale injustices, then the organization will become inactive. I don't really see where corruption can occur because no money is involved, no one is getting paid and it's for everybody - nobody is excluded and nobody is above or below any other. Certain goals could be the avoidance of certain products that are heavily subsidized by the government (many processed food products fall into this category), the avoidance of products that are the result of bad/unethical business practices, etc. It could be looked at like an all-encompassing consumer report with goals.
Certain goals could be the avoidance of certain products that are heavily subsidized by the government (many processed food products fall into this category), the avoidance of products that are the result of bad/unethical business practices, etc. It could be looked at like an all-encompassing consumer report with goals.
Sounds very nice. I encourage you to read as much Hoppe and Rothbard as you can make time to read. Start with this, this , this and this.
By the way, does your last name happen to be Bigsby?
Thanks for the links - I'll definitely check them out when I get a chance. What do you think of this idea in principle (which I'm sure someone else has come up with this idea before)? I welcome any constructive criticism or opposition so feel free!
Chris: Thanks for the links - I'll definitely check them out when I get a chance. What do you think of this idea in principle (which I'm sure someone else has come up with this idea before)? I welcome any constructive criticism or opposition so feel free!
Well, I think that's what LvMI is, in essence. I think the idea that this would be "money free" or free of any special interests is a bit utopian. TANSTAAFL - everything has a price, so money is always involved. And an organization is organized, which means there is a hierarchy. Also, I think we have to keep in mind that statism is rooted in the (misplaced) belief in centralization, whereas sound social science teaches that the real power of human society lies in uncoordinated action, that is, spontaneous order. This is one of the central tenets of Austrian theory. Spontaneous order is the only real order. The State simply mimics, codifies and mummifies the existing social order, it is incapable of creating any social order of its own, its pretenses to the contrary aside.
P.S. Dave Chappelle kicks ass
You say spontaneous order is the only real order - but what about when we know without doubt the causes of certain things? Couldn't we then quicken the process by shaping our actions according to those causes?
You must know as well as I do that we don't exactly live in accord with the "natural order" of things so to speak. Our actions have become very affected as a result of continuous indoctrination from our parents, teachers, media and all other forms of society. Do you really believe that supermarkets and government subsidies and mass processing and centralization of food are in the "natural order" of things?
If you're house flooded and there was a foot of water on the ground level, would you really just let it spontaneously fall into order? When there's a problem, a natural reaction for human beings is to find the cause of it and change our actions or strategy to eliminate it. Is that considered spontaneous order? I don't remember anyone specifically teaching me this - it seemed more innate. Does that count as spontaneous?
You're right that organization entails some kind of hierarchy. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing though - it has the potential for good and bad. Undoubtedly some people will take a more active role and consequently have more influence - such is life.
You're also right that money will almost certainly become a bigger issue as the community grows. Again this is unavoidable and neither good nor bad. If the community stays true to its roots though, it won't get corrupted and corruption is always a possibility - although how can this type of community get corrupted? If it remains an open forum dedicated to finding large-scale injustices then it won't go far astray. It's about benefiting all people, not just members of the community (although those in the community will reap the benefits more quickly.)
The facebook page I made is a humble beginning and by no means the finished product. I hope to get a forum up soon if more people show some interest.
Thanks for your input ClaytonB, you've brought up some excellent points!
ClaytonB:Also, I think we have to keep in mind that statism is rooted in the (misplaced) belief in centralization, whereas sound social science teaches that the real power of human society lies in uncoordinated action, that is, spontaneous order. This is one of the central tenets of Austrian theory. Spontaneous order is the only real order.
Here's where I disagree with you. It wasn't spontaneous order that rid the world of smallpox back in the late 60's early 70's. It takes conscious effort to rid a garden of weeds - and I expect a similar effort to rid the world of large-scale injustices. To rely on spontaneous order is to relinquish our power as rational human beings.
ClaytonB:I think we have to keep in mind that statism is rooted in the (misplaced) belief in centralization, whereas sound social science teaches that the real power of human society lies in uncoordinated action, that is, spontaneous order.
I disagree. Unintended consequences are often more effective means of social coordination than consciously planned efforts, but not always. After all, we're not leaving the libertarian movement to be organized solely by uncoordinated action; rather, it's a consciously organized movement.
"Letting the market take care of it" and "letting government take care of it" are not the only options. There's also voluntary organized action, i.e. social entrepreneurship. Moreover, the libertarian movement is not the only social movement worth engaging in. See Long and Johnson on this.
Chris:The most general credo of the group will be to counter-act large-scale injustice. In order to combat large-scale injustice, it requires a large-scale tool - in this instance the community. If there are no large-scale injustices to counter, the community will be inactive.
This is a great idea. Have you listened to Long's "Culture and Liberty" lecture? (see especially starting at ~60:00)
Btw, the link to your facebook group seems to be broken.
AnalyticalAnarchism.net - The Positive Political Economy of Anarchism
Sage: This is a great idea. Have you listened to Long's "Culture and Liberty" lecture? (see especially starting at ~60:00) Btw, the link to your facebook group seems to be broken.
No I haven't heard that lecture before - I'm going to check it out as soon as I get a chance!
Here's the link to the facebook group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=336867537088
_____________________________
I'm also looking into getting this idea started at "The Coffee Party" because they already have a community set up and I think this idea would really take off there. I don't know too much about it but I started a thread about this there. My screen name there is "ChrisD" and here's the website:
http://coffeepartyusa.com/tracker
Thanks Sage!
Centralized groups are easy to defeat; they offer one big target to focus on.
Decentralized groups are impossible to defeat.
The fallacies of intellectual communism, a compilation - On the nature of power
Stranger: Centralized groups are easy to defeat; they offer one big target to focus on. Decentralized groups are impossible to defeat.
It would have been more appropriate to call it "Unified Action" or "United Action". Even a group that is dispersed must be unified and of common purpose.
Chris: It would have been more appropriate to call it "Unified Action" or "United Action". Even a group that is dispersed must be unified and of common purpose.
Unified for what? Purpose come naturally. That is why alliances exist. But that does not mean the allied are unified.
Stranger: Unified for what? Purpose come naturally. That is why alliances exist. But that does not mean the allied are unified.
Right, people can be allied in a common purpose but not necessarily unified. It's the difference between trying to stab a hole in a piece of cardboard with a baseball bat and trying to stab a hole with that same bat but wittled down to a point. Which do you think would be more effective? What I'm calling for here is a unification for a common purpose and then focusing that common purpose to specific goals. To put it simply this would be mass boycotts of specific corporations that many of us consider to be unethical and/or against freedom.