Question is what do hunter-gatherers do for beer?
Please, everyone knows 4 Loko is the hunter-gatherer drink of choice, that and everclear doubles.
It's because there's nothing more individualist than being completely self-relient. Besides, there will be a collapse sooner than later so survivalism and primitive skills will be a necessity.
Whatever they can ferment out of local sugar-high produce. Grapes and apples are the usual suspects. That is, if the hunter gatherers have at least a bucket: http://www.howtomakecider.com/cider_equipment.php.
Yeah good luck enjoying that with wild yeast and lots of infection (brewing infection, not an actual medical infection) that you get without proper care and sanitzing, ha. Your cider/beer will taste like a horse blanket.
Your cider/beer will taste like a horse blanket.
Even now there is demand for such product - quite a lot of supermarkets sell "Natural Cider", which tastes exactly as you describe. Anyway, that's the price one pays for not cooperating with others ;)
Ok, so then they have booze. Next question: what do they do for a dentist?
http://www.dentistry-forums.com/tooth-extraction-movie-castaway-t3765.html
Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement blahblahblah :)
Booze has very little survival value tho. It's better to find water before beer.
That's a subjective statement. When I'm camping I like to get drunk.
But when you're camping you can go back to civ any time you want. I'm talking about the situation we'll be in after the economy and/or civ collapses for good. Then your beer will have little to no survival value.
Both beer and cider are good sources of vitamins and other microelements...
Anyway, why this desire to turn a perfect opportunity for ancap (assuming it happens) into a Hobbesian caricature of it?
When you picture this "collapse" do you picture everyone around you dying? The world isn't coming to an end. The cities will be there, the neighborhoods will be there, the communities will be there, essentially what one views as "society" will still be there. Everyone will be there. Production will not stop, people will still work, and as far as I know orderly people may still exchange the dollar simply based on it being on a medium of exchange. You see some Mad Max dystopian future where you are miles away from everyone, but it's you who are going to leave miles away while civilization stays intact. Intact enough to where I can go to the store and buy beer.
Wondering the same thing. This guy has a very negative view of the world to come. It's hard to grasp when you have common sense and the ability to envision that people are not animals.
Andris Birkmanis: Anyway, why this desire to turn a perfect opportunity for ancap (assuming it happens) into a Hobbesian caricature of it?
If a government collapses, it does create chaos. This is no caricature. It creates chaos because the government has a territorial monopoly on important services that would not be monopolized in such a manor in an ancap society. An ancap society would not have the same kind of chaos if one of many ancap service providers failed. It is ironic that Hobbesians support the thing that causes what they fear. This is one of the reasons why ancaps promote a peacefull intellectual revolution, not a violent abolishment of government. Let the government services stay in place but allow competition and we'll see who consumers prefer.
Bert: The cities will be there, the neighborhoods will be there, the communities will be there, essentially what one views as "society" will still be there.
The cities will be there, the neighborhoods will be there, the communities will be there, essentially what one views as "society" will still be there.
Is the grid still there? And lets remember that the government is heavily involved in supplying and regulating power. A free society would probably have already solved this problem. But we don't live in a free society so we have to live with many unnecessary dangers that the government has created because of things like its lousy power grid management. http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/25198/427395.aspx#427395
Bert: This guy has a very negative view of the world to come. It's hard to grasp when you have common sense and the ability to envision that people are not animals.
This guy has a very negative view of the world to come. It's hard to grasp when you have common sense and the ability to envision that people are not animals.
My common sense tells me that this is a thin veneer: http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/25198/427400.aspx#427400
EconomistInTraining: The harsh reality is that if something really, really bad does happen you're best to just put lipstick on so can look nice when you get fucked. (PS, I find it a little concerting that this discussion is going on in an Austrian economics discussion forum) Easy to say now, but in the midst of a survival situation, you will do things that you find unimaginable now, like cannibalism if need be. You won't just say "Oh well, I'm going to probably die anyway so I'll just give up now." And why do you find any of this disconcerting? Not following Austrian economics leads to these kinds of situations. Mmmmmm, yummy rats!: Check out my video, Ron Paul vs Lincoln! And share my PowerPoint with your favorite neo-con | Post Points: 20
The harsh reality is that if something really, really bad does happen you're best to just put lipstick on so can look nice when you get fucked.
(PS, I find it a little concerting that this discussion is going on in an Austrian economics discussion forum)
Before civ collapses I'm going to buy as much gold and silver as I possibly can b/c that ensures survival. The Zimbabwe video proves it.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-06-14/science/29656153_1_volcanic-eruption-collapse-civilization
http://www.johnzerzan.net/articles/seize-the-day.html
Food for thought.
Autolykos: If everyone started living as a hunter-gatherer, nearly everyone on Earth would die of starvation in short order. It would cut the fat. Plus, I think people would survive on the whole. Humanity has survived millenia as far as we know, and there's no reason to think the majority of people would drop off.
Autolykos: If everyone started living as a hunter-gatherer, nearly everyone on Earth would die of starvation in short order.
If everyone started living as a hunter-gatherer, nearly everyone on Earth would die of starvation in short order.
It would cut the fat. Plus, I think people would survive on the whole. Humanity has survived millenia as far as we know, and there's no reason to think the majority of people would drop off.
Hunting and gathering is just the natural state of humans. I would much rather hunt and gather my food supply than buy anything from the supermarket since I have no idea what state-subsidized big agra is putting in the food these days and I simply can't trust the FDA at all.
Hunting and gathering is just the natural state of humans.
By the same line of reasoning, living in trees and being a different species is the natural state of human beings. Just because it came first and then changed, it doesn't mean it's the "natural" state of human beings.
Domestication of plants and animals could be considered completely natural.
Freedom4Me73986: If everyone started living as a hunter-gatherer, nearly everyone on Earth would die of starvation in short order. 1) How would you know? 2) Why should I care? Are you insisting that we put the collective before the individual?
1) How would you know?
2) Why should I care? Are you insisting that we put the collective before the individual?
do you want helpless children to DIE?
(english is not my native language, sorry for grammar.)
Freedom4Me73986: If everyone started living as a hunter-gatherer, nearly everyone on Earth would die of starvation in short order. 1) How would you know? 2) Why should I care? Are you insisting that we put the collective before the individual? do you want helpless children to DIE?
I have no obligation to those children unless I voluntarily agree to it.
The political philosophy of individualism has zero to do with unnaturally cutting yourself off from society. Humans are social creatures; you out in the woods by choice is not being an individualist, it's being a hermit. It's a hobby, not a political stance, nor even a naturalistic one.
Why anarchy fails
Rather than relying strictly on foraging and hunting, perhaps you can hedge your bet a little:
Permaculture
Agroforestry
Survival Potatoes - I would also do some "guerilla planting" of these in any available space.
Survival Kale - Great self-seeding leafy green vegetable. Any of the "brassicas" can be emergency food.
As other poster have stated, "rugged individualism" is just hermitude. What is the point of surviving all alone? Definitely need to get yourself a tribe.
Rather than relying strictly on foraging and hunting, perhaps you can hedge your bet a little: Permaculture Agroforestry Survival Potatoes - I would also do some "guerilla planting" of these in any available space. Survival Kale - Great self-seeding leafy green vegetable. Any of the "brassicas" can be emergency food. As other poster have stated, "rugged individualism" is just hermitude. What is the point of surviving all alone? Definitely need to get yourself a tribe.
Thanks for this. Although I'd need to be 100% certain that those seeds are non-GMO. I'm trying to avoid ag b/c ag was the root of the state and eat a diet consisting of 100% raw wild plants and sometimes raw milk. No meat, no gluten, no grains, just wild, natural and raw veggies, fruits and nuts.
Freedom4Me73986:Although I'd need to be 100% certain that those seeds are non-GMO.
There are plenty of organic heirloom seed companies to choose from. Some I've used in the past:
Seed Savers Exchange
Southern Exposure Seed Exchange
Johnny's Select Seeds
Fedco Seeds
Freedom4Me73986:I'm trying to avoid ag b/c ag was the root of the state
Along with deception, ignorance, and superstition. There are examples of semi-agricultural "stateless" (depends how you are defining it) cultures
Zo'e People
Mandan Tribe
Also, "agriculture" does not necessarily consist of plowing, planting, weeding, etc. Edible landscapes can be designed that are self-sustaining, requiring little to no human intervention:
Natural Farming
Polyculture
Forest Gardening
Three Sisters
Landrace
Self-seeding Vegetables
Freedom4Me73986:eat a diet consisting of 100% raw wild plants and sometimes raw milk. No meat, no gluten, no grains, just wild, natural and raw veggies, fruits and nuts.
What about eggs?
Freedom4Me73986:I'm trying to avoid ag b/c ag was the root of the state Along with deception, ignorance, and superstition. There are examples of semi-agricultural "stateless" (depends how you are defining it) cultures
The whole point of the state was to manage ag. That's how it came into being. Those cultures you showed me were not fully agricultural.
I'm split on eggs. Ever read The China Study? I get most of my data about animal products from that. Eating animals seems illogical.
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"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann
"When A Man Dies A World Goes Out of Existence" - GLS Shackle
Freedom4Me73986,
The whole point of the state is to exploit productive members of society. It is fundamentally fraud. Whether or not those surplus producers are farmers.
I haven't read The China Study, but I have heard of it. How is eating animals illogical? If it is from a sort of "caloric efficiency", I do agree that killing and eating animals is typically less efficient than growing crops, but the renewable animal foods (milk, eggs, blood) are extremely efficient food sources, since animals are able to process non food calories (grass, shrubs, bugs, etc.) into food calories for humans.
Maasai
My father and I are looking into attaining maximum efficiency with minimal inputs for animal food production. Pigs and chickens seem like very good candidates in our climate (temperate decidious forest). One farmer has spent a good deal of effort on working through some of the more holistic livestock management systems.
Joel Salatin
Also, those Chinese people in the study were certainly sedentary farmers. Their land management system was documented in great detail in the book Farmers of Forty Centuries. Big into organic matter recycling.
Freedom4Me73986, The whole point of the state is to exploit productive members of society. It is fundamentally fraud. Whether or not those surplus producers are farmers.
Where did you learn your history of how the state came into being?
The state had nothing to do with the origin of agriculture. Evidence of agriculture precedes any evidence for a centralised state by literally thousands of years. States historically arose in agricultural and pastoral areas only because they could confiscate goods from their subjects without the result of societal collapse (via emigration, starvation, revolution etc.). This was only possible due to the increased capital accumulation of their subjects compared to hunter-gatherers. There is no support in theory or in history for the state playing a role in the origin of agriculture.
My personal personal favorite stateless agrarian site:
Catal Hyuk
The collusion of the first temple/grainary priests and ambitious chiefs/warlords created "the state" as we know it. Of course, you could trace it all the way back to the rise of the patriarchial nuclear family if you wanted.
"Booze has very little survival value tho. It's better to find water before beer."
Nope. Not even true.
Why do you think drinks like tea that involve boiling water and beer which involved distilling or fermenting even exist? Its because it's incredibly hard to find drinkable water that isn't filled with bacteria. Brewing is a way of drinking something without having to worry about the purification process, and its pretty easy (and doesn't taste like horse).
False idea the government has been feeding you. I do not mean to sound like a health nut (and I am quite hesitant to react when someone says that the government willingly lies to us about food safety (besides big food interests, of course)), but my family has made apple cider completely naturally without any chemicals or special equipment and we've not gotten sick of it (it is slightly alcoholic and I'm sure it can be increased in alcohol level).
Furthermore, my parents make wine themselves. I don't see where you get the idea of that many infections from.
it's incredibly hard to find drinkable water that isn't filled with bacteria
All water has bacteria. Period. Now, are those bacteria bad? Not all of them. My parents will soon start getting water from a spring, and people in Bulgaria do this all the time as well. I agree that boiling water or drinking alcohol increases chances of no infection, but I doubt that safe water is that scarce.
It's the popular account of why these drinks show up. If the water near by is undrinkable, you boil it or brew. *shrug*
Considering that civ is supposedly collapsing on itself, goldbricks shouldn't be counting on clean water.
Capitalists who want to be survivialists...now there is a contradiction.
I welcome the market. I love it. I welcome civilization, it allows me to specialize into a field that I desire to be in.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
"Capitalists who want to be survivialists...now there is a contradiction."
Exactly what I've been thinking about it. All the post-civ folks I know are concerned with finding a tribe, not living by themselves and collecting gold in the hopes of being some post-civ king of trade.