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Just laid some serious libertarian pwnage on nooblets...

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krazy kaju Posted: Thu, May 29 2008 2:33 PM

So in my AP US gov class (yes, I'm in high school) we had a debate on universal health care. It was like 7 (con) v. 11 (pro).

I pretty much single handedly owned the rest of the class, though my team mates pitched in and did well also. My biggest problem was that anyone who was being too dominant had to step down, so I wasn't able to refute all of my opponent's arguments.

In any case, here the basic outline of my case:

 

 

  1. The United States had the world’s best health care system.
    1. The World Health Organization ranks the United States number one in the world in responsiveness to patients’ needs in choice of provider, dignity, autonomy, timely care, and confidentiality.
    2. US provides world’s highest quality health care.
    3. The American Enterprise Institute found exogenous factors (like subjective “fairness” and “equality” rankings) effect the USA’s low ranking on the scale.
    4. American cancer, pneumonia, heart disease, and AIDS patients have a greater probability of surviving due to our superior health care system. For example, male American cancer patients have a 62.9% chance of surviving five years while male UK cancer patients have a 44.8% survival rate.
    5. One out of every three Canadian physicians sends a patient to the United States for treatment each year, and those patients along with the Canadian gov’t spend more than $1 bil annually on health care in America.
    6. Foreign heads of state and gov’t (i.e. Italian PM and Canadian MP) come to America for their health needs.
    7. The American system breeds innovation: 18 of the last 25 winners of the Nobel Prize in Medicine are either US citizens or individuals working here.
    8. Advanced medical technology is far more available in the US than in any other country (eg highest per capita MRI units and CT scanners).
    9. US patients are more likely to receive preventative care for chronic or serious diseases than are Canadians.
  2. Countries with universal health care face long waiting lists, rationing, restrictions on physician choice, and other obstacles to care.
    1. It has been shown that when people have free access to health care they tend to abuse it. All nations that have adopted universal health care have experienced a problem called “nomadisme medical” in France, but commonly referred to as the “moral hazard” by economists: patients go from one doctor to another (causing waiting lists, rationing, doctor shortages, and high costs) until they find one whose diagnosis they prefer.
    2. Countries with universal health care have inferior access to advanced medical technology, due to central planning. The US has the most per capita CT scanners and MRI units out of any country.
    3. In France: “one study found that nearly 90% of French asthma patients are not receiving drugs that might improve their condition” and “mismanagement and the inability of the system to cope with emergencies were blamed in part for the deaths of 15,000 elderly individuals in the summer of 2003 during the European heat wave; and a shortage of hospital beds occurred in 2004 when a nationwide flue and bronchitis epidemic broke out.”
    4. Waiting lists:

                                                               i.            In Italy: average of 70 days for a mammorgram, 74 days for an endoscopy, and 23 days for a sonogram.

                                                             ii.            In Spain: average of 65 days to see a specialist (Canary Islands 140 days, Galacia 81 days). Average of 71 day wait to see a gynecologist and 81 day wait to see a neurologist. The mean waiting time for a prostectomy is 62 days, for hip replacement surgery it is 123 days. There is no rehabilitation for surgery patients.

                                                            iii.            Norway: hip replacement surgery -  four months   prostectomy – three months   hysterectomy – two months…. Approx. 23% of all patients referred for hospital admission have to wait longer than three months for admission. Approx. 280,000 Norwegians are waiting for care on any given day out of a population of 4.6 million.

                                                           iv.            Portugal: at least 25% of emergency room patients do not need immediate treatment. Currently, more than 150,000 Portuguese are on waiting lists for surgery, out of a population of just 10.6 million.

                                                             v.            Greece: hospitals suffer from staff shortages, less than half of authorized medical positions are actually filled. Greece needs and estimated 5,000 general practitioners to meet demand while there are only about 600 practicing ones. Six month wait for an outpatient appointment, wait for either the hypertension or neurology departments is 150 days.

                                                           vi.            Netherlands: three month wait for hip replacement and two month wait for prostectomy and hysterectomy.

                                                          vii.            UK: 750,000 Britons waiting for admission to hospitals. Cancer patients can wait as long as eight months for treatment. Roughly 40% of cancer patients never get to see an oncology specialist. Only 30 to 50% of patients are treated within 18 weeks. For trauma and orthopedics patients, the figure is only 20%. Overall, more than half of British patients wait more than 18 weeks for care.

                                                        viii.            Canada: more than 800,000 Canadians waiting for treatment at any given time. Treatment time averaged 17.7 weeks (not including waiting time). At least 50 patients in Ontario alone have died  while on a waiting list for cardiac catheterization. “Thirty-three percent of Canadians who say they have an unmet medical need reported being in pain that limits their daily activities.” Canadian Supreme Court Chief Justice: “patients die while on the waiting list.”

  1. People in nations with universal health care are dissatisfied.
    1. 65% of French adults believe that reform is “urgent” and another 20% believe that reform is “desirable” (85% total).
    2. 60% of Italians believe that health care reform is “urgent” while another 24% believe it is “desirable” (84% total).
    3. 46% of Spaniards describe the need for reform as “urgent” while another 35% see reform as “desirable” (81% total).
    4. 63% of Britons say that the need for reform is “urgent” while another 24% say it is “desirable” (87% total).
    5. 59% of Canadians want “fundamental changes” to health care while 18% want their health care system to be totally scrapped (77% total).
  2. Universal health care will be too expensive.
    1. Health care spending is 4.3 times the amount spent on national defense just because of Medicaid, Medicare, and SCHIP, imagine what it would be with more spending on universal health care!
    2. Health care spending is projected to increase to $4 trillion by 2015. Our gov’t cannot afford that.
    3. Health programs already account for 24% of our federal budget. Anything more would lead us into overtaxation and bankruptcy.
    4. France’s health care system ran the nation into a 10.3 billion deficit. This could top 66 billion euro by 2020.
    5. UK is currently running a 700 pound yearly deficit due to health care.
    6. High payroll, income, and sales taxes are needed to fund health programs. These high taxes often cause unemployment (as entrepreneurs don’t have enough money to hire multiple people) and people to have lower wages (as employers use wage money for payroll taxes). Purchasing power is also reduced due to high sales and income taxes.
  3. Cutting regulation will make health care more accessible.
    1. Economists estimate that regulation of health care accounts for about 30% of health care costs in America. By eliminating regulation and taxes on the health care industry, the government could make health care more accessible to everyone.

Here are my sources:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-613.pdf

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/docshortage2.html

http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/we-can-have-afford-hc.html

 

Hope this can help anyone here who is currently debating about universal health care with socialists-in-wolf's-clothing.

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Ronorama replied on Thu, May 29 2008 2:58 PM

Nicely done! It's encouraging to see someone your age defending the principles of liberty. Keep up the good work!

 

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Bumped because I regret not being a libertarian in HS for this very same reason, and also for the uses of "pwned" and "nooblets", which caused me much "lolz".

"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict

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Thank you for the lolz.

 

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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I was the lone voice for Misesian liberalism in my history classes as well. Though I did take one AP course, I never took anymore. In fact, I did terribly throughout high school.

I am glad there are people who can actually tolerate the public school system in it's current and forever status. Those of us who are not willing to commit to the stupid tasks and busy work are left to die near the bottom of the pile; and subsequently fail to progress as far in academia as the state's 4.0 GPA stooges - With some exceptions.

I just got out of HS and am going to have to take General Education and all the wonderful little obstacles in community college because of my practical mistakes (though certainly not philosophical mistakes!).

Best of luck to you,

Telpeurion

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Haha, thanks guys.

I'm not the best student at all, but I decided to actually prepare for a debate once, as I didn't prepare for a single debate in my debate class last semester.

I really can't wait until I get out of the public school system and am able to study what I want (economics and philosophy).

 

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krazy kaju:

Haha, thanks guys.

I'm not the best student at all, but I decided to actually prepare for a debate once, as I didn't prepare for a single debate in my debate class last semester.

I really can't wait until I get out of the public school system and am able to study what I want (economics and philosophy).

 

 

 C's, D's and F's were my forte. You?

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Telpeurion:

 C's, D's and F's were my forte. You?

My parents are quite strict, so I manage to get As, Bs, and Cs. I've only had one D in school so far and I don't plan on getting another one. My cumulative core GPA is like a 3.2 or something and my ACT score was a 26 (with virtually no studying). I've been trying to do better in the hopes going to George Mason.

My grades might be better than yours were, but I still hate school (or at least being forced to learn things I don't care for at all). Tongue Tied

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Hahaha, that is great man.

Remember that you aren't stuck at a college. If you don't get into George Mason, study hard your first semester and reapply. Keep trying until you get accepted.

Good luck!

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Thanks. I was thinking about going to a slightly worse university where my mom teaches, since I know for sure I could get in there, I'd have like half off on the tuition, and the education there isn't too bad (I'd say it's third after UM and MSU here in Michigan).

I could go there for two years and then switch to GMU or maybe go to GMU for grad school (b/c of their Austrian program). Dunno.

 

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MacFall replied on Thu, May 29 2008 9:19 PM

I didn't do well in high school either, and frankly didn't need to. I didn't learn a damn thing of any importance to me whatsoever between 4th grade and college.

But when we had our mandatory senior class debate, I got stuck on the pro-legalization of marijuana side. That opened the door to libertarianism for me, and I latched right on to it.

I kicked butt.

 

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Ronorama replied on Thu, May 29 2008 9:38 PM

Telpeurion:
Those of us who are not willing to commit to the stupid tasks and busy work are left to die near the bottom of the pile; and subsequently fail to progress as far in academia as the state's 4.0 GPA stooges - With some exceptions.

Take heart, dude. I was the same way...unchallenged and bored outta my skull during HS. I graduated barely in the top half of my class, nearly failed out of my first semester in college, and have no degree. Now I'm a database administrator, making a six-figure salary. I'm not particularly talented or lucky...just found something I enjoyed doing and learned all I could while doing it.

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shazam replied on Thu, May 29 2008 10:29 PM

 Good job. Not to change the subject, but it kinda reminds me of when I showed my history teacher a Lewrockwell.com article about Lincoln's violation of habeus corpus.

Anarcho-capitalism boogeyman

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When you say the UK goes in a £700 yearly deficit surely you meant to say more than that?

-Jon

Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...

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scineram replied on Fri, May 30 2008 3:35 PM
shazam:

 Good job. Not to change the subject, but it kinda reminds me of when I showed my history teacher a Lewrockwell.com article about Lincoln's violation of habeus corpus.

And what was the reaction? Was it in college?
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You should have just used one sentence:  "my position, unlike that of my opponent, involves no theft or violence or threats of imprisonment."

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ChaseCola replied on Fri, May 30 2008 5:44 PM

 In my history class(also highschool) we were talking about the effects of the Idustrial revolution and I got into an argument over whether or not the poor were better off in the industrial revolution.

her- positive effects of industrial revolution?

me- people had more money

her- be more specific

me- everyone had more money

her- everyone?

me- yes, even the poor because they judged the factory jobs to be more beneficial to the old farm jobs

her- maybe they got kicked off the farm and had no choice?

me- then at least they would have an alternative rather than starving

later on.....

her-if the population increased too much then there wouldn't be any jobs left for the new people

me- the new people would create a new demand for products and thus more jobs

her- (she changed her mind and agreed with me, forgot how she said it though)

She also had various comments about how the minimum wage would make the poor better off, how monopolies occur in an unregulated economy, and how terrible child labor is. I didn't have a chance to refute these.

 "The plans differ; the planners are all alike"

-Bastiat

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