so if we lived like them and used our free time to develop technology, rather than bake in the sun picking our nuts and waiting for rat traps. we would be hurting ourselves long term?
Yes because we know it will be our downfall. Civ and tech are inherently destructive.
For the record I've never watched any video you've posted, and I'm sure the sentiment amongst other forum members is mutual.
Then it's no wonder your not understanding my arguments.
Freedom4Me73986:Yes because we know it will be our downfall.
It will be? Tech has been around for thousands of years; I can't wait any longer for the downfall.
Civ and tech are inherently destructive.
I once used a hammer to build a dog house.
To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process. Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!" Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."
Freedom4Me73986:Yes because we know it will be our downfall. It will be? Tech has been around for thousands of years; I can't wait any longer for the downfall.
Did you watch the vid I posted? Just because civ isn't crashing at the moment doesn't mean it won't eventually fall. Every other civilization has collapsed. Why do you think ours is any different?
Civ and tech are inherently destructive. I once used a hammer to build a dog house.
Strawman.
No, I understand perfectly, they're just stupid. The reality is my technology is not advanced enough to load videos at higher speeds on my computer, that my tech is not tech enough to learn about being anti-tech, so I'm not going to waste time to load videos to learn why I just wasted my time loading videos. Get it? Yeah, I think it's pretty stupid too.
So if it is our downfall then what are your feeling's towards tools used in your example of tribal people using traps? isn't that a form of technology? what about the production of clothing? isn't a bow and arrow, spear, knife, etc... a form of technological advancement achieved over time? and like many have asked... why are you using your computer then?
You're out of your league, William. Delete your post and get out while you still can.
Haha! Can we just respond to all of F4M's posts with a simple 'touché' from now on?
The Anarch is to the Anarchist what the Monarch is to the Monarchist. -Ernst Jünger
I understand that F4M uses the videos as part of his argument--as opposed to using them as support. However, am I the only one that finds that ironic?
Hunter-gatherers' tools aren't the same as the tech used by civilized man.
So you're drawing arbitrary lines in seperating technology? Where does it stop? Are we talking about everything up to the Industrial Revolution, or simply things that use electricity?
When I say tech I mean all the tech which was invented after the creation of civilization incld. agriculture. This is why you need to watch the videos I post.
I'm starred
Every time I've brought the topic up no one answers: WHAT'S WRONG ABOUT WANTING TO BE SELF-SUFFICIENT??? What's wrong w/ living on your own outside of civilization?
Hunter-gatherers PROVE anarcho-capitalism correct. They have 100% free markets, no states and no aggression. Everywhere there's technology and civilization there's statism.
Freedom4Me73986:Every time I've brought the topic up no one answers: WHAT'S WRONG ABOUT WANTING TO BE SELF-SUFFICIENT??? What's wrong w/ living on your own outside of civilization?
Nothing. WHY DON'T YOU GO DO THAT ALREADY?
I find this thread fascinating.
^^^ This.
Freedom4Me73986:Every time I've brought the topic up no one answers: WHAT'S WRONG ABOUT WANTING TO BE SELF-SUFFICIENT??? What's wrong w/ living on your own outside of civilization? Nothing. WHY DON'T YOU GO DO THAT ALREADY?
WHY DON'T YOU GO AHEAD AND LEAVE THE STATE IF YOUR ANTI-STATE???
Tu quoque.
Freedom4Me73986:WHY DON'T YOU GO AHEAD AND LEAVE THE STATE IF YOUR ANTI-STATE???
Because I never expressed a desire to "leave the state". You said yourself that you want to live in the woods. What do you not do that?
When I say tech I mean all the tech which was invented after the creation of civilization incld. agriculture
This would probably include things like wagons, scythes, barrels, plows, and anything more advanced than gardening tools with the exception of a bow and spear. The Amish would be more advanced than what you think you'd like to live like.
Uh, nothing, it's very admirable, except that 1) you are not and probably never will do it, so shut up about it, and 2) you really do not know what you are talking about nor do you understand the evolution of humanity.
I hold Thoreau in very high regard, I loved Walden, but you on the other hand are rather unintelligent (this is not slander, as you've stated many ignorant statements time and time again about subjects you are completely absent minded about) and you simply don't get it and never will do what you talk about.
Uh, no, hunger-gatherers prove anarcho-primitivism works for those involved. H/G's did not have markets, they had heirarchies, and they had aggression with neighboring tribes - this is all fact.
Uh, yeah, no kidding where there's humanity there's a form of rule and law. How about this... the people on this forum are not hunter-gatherers, anarcho-primitivists, anti-tech, nor do we care if you are or are not, as long as you stop posting your nonsense on this forum. The only utility you bring to this forum is trolling yourself for our entertainment. Most forum users generally stop after a certain period, but for you it's like you simply don't get it. That you think if you post 100 more videos about squatting in the woods we'll somehow magically agree to do it as well.
So what? Humans lived w/o those things for centuries.
Uh, nothing, it's very admirable, except that 1) you are not and probably never will do it, so shut up about it,
I don't see why I should have to leave civ now. And I'm learning primitive/survivalist skills. Why do you think someone can just leave civilization and learn primitive skills in a day?
and 2) you really do not know what you are talking about nor do you understand the evolution of humanity.
How?
H/G's did not have markets,
Markets have ALWAYS existed. A market is just voluntary exchange. Capitalism just means a free market. H/Gs exchange things all the time. After civilization's pending collapse there's no reason to think that a market wouldn't re-emerge.
they had heirarchies,
Hierarchies have always existed.
and they had aggression with neighboring tribes - this is all fact.
Not all H/Gs. Take a look at the bushmen. They don't have wars with anyone.
Why do you care that I post here?
so are you admitting that you are staying in civilation and using technology in order to learn how to improve your living standards for when you decide to be "one with nature"? Thus proving that you are a living cantradiction of what you deem a destruction force? Also, who are you to decide what tools are necessary and which are destructive?
One more point to make. You say you support the market, and point out that voluntary exchange is is free market. So how is it destructive if i make bows and arrows your tribal world using a device that i also made to increase the qauntity of production? Is that device bad? who am i hurting (other than the wild game)? That device would be deemed an technological advancment would it not? just like everything else is/was. Just like the computer you use daily. Just because evil people use the tool to do evil things doesn't mean the tool is evil. Wondering if you have heard the phrase, "guns don't kill people, people kill people"?
so are you admitting that you are staying in civilation and using technology in order to learn how to improve your living standards for when you decide to be "one with nature"? Thus proving that you are a living cantradiction of what you deem a destruction force?
So what do you say to the people who are using state roads all while claiming to be anti-state?
Also, who are you to decide what tools are necessary and which are destructive?
Watch the Law of Life video. It should be simple: civilized man kills his competitors (weeds, bugs, predators) at a rate way bigger then any other living creature.
Most tech enables violence. I believe in the NAP and that's why I'm against almost all tech except for the tools needed to survive outside of civilization. Ask yourself why you need all this technology. What's it good for?
That the state has a monopoly on roads? A road itself is not an extension of the state, a road is a path traveled. It's as simple as that.
It should be simple: civilized man kills his competitors (weeds, bugs, predators) at a rate way bigger then any other living creature.
Wait... what? Your argument rests on that fact of what people would call natural order or in another sense Social Darwinism? Survival of the fittest is also applied to hunter-gatherers as well. What's the problem?
Enabling? Subjective. That's like saying "this hammer can enable a man to build a house, or smash someone's head in... so let's ban hammers." What's this technology good for? Learning, communicating, archiving information for intellectual or personal pursuits, expanding my sense of the arts through searching, etc.
And I could argue that civilization and the state have a monopoly on everything. That's why I moved to the most libertarian state. The violent monopoly isn't nearly as bad, so when the state collapses and civ starts crashing I know I can be safe. Ever thought of that?
That's like saying "this hammer can enable a man to build a house, or smash someone's head in... so let's ban hammers."
Not ban. More like throw in the trash and learn to live without.
Freedom4Me73986:Not ban. More like throw in the trash and learn to live without.
...kind of like you could easily do with your computer. Like, now.
Why don't you do this?
Bert pretty much explained why we use "this". Without it you wouldn't have the number of Austrians, FSP members, RP supporters, etc... Why do you use it since you have stated that a computer is destructive? Is it because you want to aquire knowledge on how to rat trap and use your hand as butt wipe for your "nature boy" living? So therefore proving that a computer is just another tool used for anyones purpose, good or bad?
As for roads and the state. A road is a road. A tool that is is mainly owned by the state. This doesn't mean i hate the road. I hate that the state owns the road. I simply do not wish to destroy the road. Rather, have it run by private owners that make decisions based on profit motives that deal with competition of other providers. You on the other had want it destroyed, trashed, avoided, etc... Yet you still use your computer? So why not give it to someone that would be more productive with it? Sell it for beaver pelts, snuff, or a first aid k... oh wait that's a technological advancement. hmmm...well i guess you can use your crap as a form of medicine for the many wounds you'll get when you're living your nature moments.
Freedom4Me73986:Not ban. More like throw in the trash and learn to live without. ...kind of like you could easily do with your computer. Like, now. Why don't you do this?
Why do you care?
Freedom4Me73986:Why do you care?
You seriously can't answer a question, can you. You have no answers or logic to your professed nonsense, so every hard question you're posed with, you simply try to flip back by responding with a question.
But I'll go ahead and address this one too.
It doesn't matter why I care. Let's say I care because I want the best for you, and I want you to stop being made fun of and laughed at. Let's say I want you to be logically consistant. Let's say I care because your presence here is of benefit to no one. Everyone here alleges that they would prefer you not post here, and even you yourself allege the same thing.
Your goals are the same. You and everyone else would all prefer you not post here...meaning all parties involved would be happier. Let's say I care because I think everyone involved being happier, is a good thing, and I'd like to see that happen.
It doesn't matter why I care. That's not the issue. The issue is, why don't you do it?
Freedom4Me73986:Why do you care? You seriously can't answer a question, can you. You have no answers or logic to your professed nonsense, so every hard question you're posed with, you simply try to flip back by responding with a question. But I'll go ahead and address this one too. It doesn't matter why I care. Let's say I care because I want the best for you, and I want you to stop being made fun of and laughed at. Let's say I want you to be logically consistant. Let's say I care because your presence here is of benefit to no one. Everyone here alleges that they would prefer you not post here, and even you yourself allege the same thing. Your goals are the same. You and everyone else would all prefer you not post here...meaning all parties involved would be happier. Let's say I care because I think everyone involved being happier, is a good thing, and I'd like to see that happen. It doesn't matter why I care. That's not the issue. The issue is, why don't you do it?
Because how can we leave the state? What country, island, land do we go travel to so we can be free to live? The best we have is some countries aren't as forceful as others. Living out in the woods is temporary freedom because once a park ranger reports you in you will have to start making a run for it. Going to live in the wild on government controlled land doesn't sound like the alternative that benefits a growing number of libertarians. Also, think about this for a second. The difficulty of leaving the State is a tough and expensive journey. Is dumping your computer in the trash equally as hard?
You could simply discard your "technology", grab a stick, and be out living your dream within minutes (until government workers catch you). While many of us have to use "technology" to find a spot that might work out, save up to buy the lawyers, research teams, land, etc... Move there, find outside traders (that most likey will still be manage by their country's government), and aquire many other resources to have a high standard of living.
I don't use the state as my resource to advocate getting rid of it... You on the other hand have used the very thing you hate to reply back to me as you try to argue that you hate it and find it destructive.
You like discussing economics and libertarianism... why? in your tribal world a simple glance of Murphy's first 4 chapters in "Lessons for the Young Economist" covers about all you'll cover and allow in your nomadic adventures. no much of a complex system when everyone has outdated cloths, handful of berries, a stick, rat pelts, and insects to snack on. The minute some try to establish a money system to simplify trading, you as grand cheiftan, will swing on down and warn of how people will form into a civilization and will be destroyed by this "destructive behavior".
Freedom4Me73986:How am I any more inconsistent than anti-statists who refuse to leave the state?
Gee. I point out how Freedom4Me73986 only answers questions with questions, and then ask him a question...and he responds with a question. You should see my big surprised face.
I want to keep posting here while I'm living in civilization because I like discussing economics and libertarianism.
But you are not doing that. You never do that. Most of the time you were here you posted idiotic FSP/New Hampshire propaganda...until you proposed a challenge which I accepted, and you lost...thus revoking your right to post that crap here any longer (an agreement which you still ignored for quite some time).
Ever since then you've been annoying everyone with your bullshit primitivist nonsense and crowding threads with useless videos which no one ever clicks. You're not discussing anything. You're just propagandizing (or at least you think you are) and doing nothing more than being a nuisance.
You talk about how civilization and technology are the debil and how you want to get away from that and live in the woods. You can easily do that. You could do that right this second. Just get rid of your technology (that means your computer) and go into the woods. I don't care if you think someone is a hypocrite for "not leaving the state" (even though that makes absolutely no sense). No one here ever expressed any interest in "leaving the state".
YOU explicitly said you wished to go live in the woods without technology. On many occasions. You still maintain that today. You are Using the Internet to proclaim being anti-tech on a regular basis when you could easily be living in the woods.
Either admit you like computers, you like the Internet and you don't actually want to live in the woods, or go do it.
http://evolvify.com/agriculture-is-imperialism/
Freedom4Me73986:Watch the Law of Life video. It should be simple: civilized man kills his competitors (weeds, bugs, predators) at a rate way bigger then any other living creature.
I, for one, did watch the video. The argument presented seems contradictory to me. On the one hand, the narrator states that civilized man violates the alleged "Law of Life". But then he goes on to state that this alleged "Law of Life" will ultimately cut civilized man down to size (so to speak). That implies that civilized man is not, in fact, violating this alleged "Law of Life". Furthermore, it implies that this alleged "Law of Life" cannot be violated. And that would mean that civilized man is actually acting in complete accordance with it.
The keyboard is mightier than the gun.
Non parit potestas ipsius auctoritatem.
Voluntaryism Forum
Freedom4Me73986:Watch the Law of Life video. It should be simple: civilized man kills his competitors (weeds, bugs, predators) at a rate way bigger then any other living creature. I, for one, did watch the video. The argument presented seems contradictory to me. On the one hand, the narrator states that civilized man violates the alleged "Law of Life". But then he goes on to state that this alleged "Law of Life" will ultimately cut civilized man down to size (so to speak). That implies that civilized man is not, in fact, violating this alleged "Law of Life". Furthermore, it implies that this alleged "Law of Life" cannot be violated. And that would mean that civilized man is actually acting in complete accordance with it.
Daniel Muffinburg:</thread>
Hey, Freedom4Me73986 is the one who bumped this thing. (suprise surprise, to completely ignore anything that was said or asked and post a nonsense link no one will click.)
So why won't you read the links I post? If you took the time to realize where I'm coming from you might not be so quick to write me off as crazy.
Fact: anarcho-primitivism IS anarcho-capitalism. Hunter-gatherers had no states and interacted on a completely voluntary basis. They freely traded and were way more peaceful than civilized man ever will be.
Fact: agriculture is the root of civilization which is the root of most of today's aggression. Civilized man is way more violent, has way more tools to commit violent acts of aggression against others and is unhealthier and unhappier.
Fact: ag and civ and almost all tech are not sustainable in the least bit. State-subsidized industrial ag is going to bottom out soon enough once all topsoil is destroyed. Why stay dependent on ag when you can learn primitive survival skills?
Fact: civ and the state are poisoning us. Cell phones are known to cause cancer. Computers probably do as well. All pasteurized beverages are full of caricinogens as well. Why have cancer and autism rates gone way up in the past 20 years and why dont' H/Gs get either?