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Conscription

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Madsen Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012 5:00 AM

Hello

I find myself in the position of being called in to millitary service about twice every year due to Norways national service. Which is bound by law to imply all males in the country by the constitution. I have formerly served as secondlieutenant and platoon chief. This was voluentary. But now because of the law I can be called in to service every year up to te age of 54. I find this to be nothing else but stated imposed slavery. The only way to not be called in is to say you are a pasifist. I find the pasifist position morally disgusting, but the only way I can send a letter in to not be called in again and again. My question is this: What does the community think about using a lie, that I am a pasifist to protect myself against what I perceive as slavery?

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Wheylous replied on Tue, Jun 19 2012 5:59 AM

Hm. Should you make an utterance which violates no one's rights, or should you be taken to a war camp owned by a state?

Idk, man. This is a tough one.

Plus, I'm not sure there is only one meaning to pacifism. You could think of it as a NAP position.

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Is this a joke?

"I find this to be nothing else but stated imposed slavery."

Dude, all you have to do is sign some paper that says you're a pacifist, and then they leave you alone... and you call that slavery? 

"I find the pasifist position morally disgusting"

Yeah, whenever I see buddhists I can barely contain my disgust.  Gross!  Pacifism! 

they said we would have an unfair fun advantage

"enough about human rights. what about whale rights?" -moondog
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Plus, I'm not sure there is only one meaning to pacifism

 

I don't think it is either.  It's seems to be an umbrella term.

Plus, I'm not too sure what's disgusting about it, if you look at it broadly.  There is quite a diverse group of people out there who could be called pacifists to some degree, many of whom I personally find admirable.

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

"When A Man Dies A World Goes Out of Existence"  - GLS Shackle

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Madsen replied on Wed, Jun 20 2012 5:00 AM

Sure you can find a person admirable with out finding their pasifism admirable. The reason I find it disgusting is the lack of will to protect yourself, your property and others. If the situation occurs that you have to use violence to stop violece I would do so, not like Ghandi who said that a woman shall not struggle against a reapist. It is a defatist policy which could only be realized if everyone else agreed to do it aswell. It is to allow yourself to be a means for other peoples ends, it is slave morality.

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Madsen replied on Wed, Jun 20 2012 5:05 AM

Yes state imposed slavery. If I sign the letter it is not, but given that "if" it is. Before that was not sufficient if you signed the letter you would have to do other types of civil service that had a non military character. And as an atheist I do find buddhists a bit disgusting, such as the Dalai Lama walking around claiming to be a god.

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z1235 replied on Wed, Jun 20 2012 7:40 AM

Madsen:

What does the community think about using a lie, that I am a pasifist to protect myself against what I perceive as slavery?

Would you have a problem stating (lying) to someone who is about to rape you that you had AIDS?

 

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Wheylous replied on Wed, Jun 20 2012 7:51 AM

Kn-kn-kn-kn-KNOCKOUTTT!!!!!

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Madsen replied on Thu, Jun 21 2012 3:15 AM

I can see that my last reply to Wheylous did not get posted. My own position of the mather overlaps with this view. Lying in itself is not good or bad it depends on how the lie is used. I think most people look upon a lie as something bad because it is mostly associated with this. Using a lie is like using knife it is not good or bad in itself it depends on wether the usage is to promote ones own happiness or destroy someone elses, like cutting ones bread or stabbing someone. Just like in the Menger Principles there is a chain of value to the lower items which derive them from the higher items.

I had to send the letter before the 20th, and I did stating that I am a pacifist.

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Wheylous replied on Thu, Jun 21 2012 3:37 AM

Yay! You also could have added something along the liens of how you see taxation as violence and something else NAPish.

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Madsen replied on Thu, Jun 21 2012 6:07 AM

Haha, indeed, I did add a litle something extra. I considered going haywire but then again there is only one functionare reading it. In this I only thought I would do myself a disfavour. However I did have a small wish in this case of hypostatization of the state and tell it off.

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Marko replied on Thu, Jun 21 2012 3:19 PM

I think it is clever and virtous. I think you should tell your government one lie every day.

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Wheylous replied on Fri, Jun 22 2012 1:32 AM

Hah! Made me laugh yes

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MaikU replied on Fri, Jun 22 2012 8:04 AM

Posted it on fb.

"Dude... Roderick Long is the most anarchisty anarchist that has ever anarchisted!" - Evilsceptic

(english is not my native language, sorry for grammar.)

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Madsen replied on Fri, Jul 13 2012 12:24 PM

Round two:

As I wrote awhile ago I sent in a letter saying that I was a pacifist, a friend of mine did so and got lose, this however did not happen to me. I will post a translation of the letter here:

 

Given Name Surname - Application from release of duty to the national gurad - Rejected

1. Background

Conscriptiondepartment answer to the application.

2. Evaluastion

According to the law of conscription and the law about the national guard all conscripts have the duty to offer there service to the national guard, if no other assignment is given. The law of conscription demands 19 months of service and that soldiers and officers have this duty untill they are 44 years old.

According to the conscription law §2-2, conscription seizes if any of the following rules are applied:

a) You live abroad

b) Your current job has a non-constriptive caracther

c) You are denied the right to service

d) Medical condition

e) Transferred to civil duty

If you say you have pasifistic attitude/conscience then you can fill out the form sent, and ask for a transfer to civil duty.

3. Conclusion

Your application is rejected, you will need to appear at the given date.

By authority of

Given name Surname

Lieutenant

Stab Officer

 

So these basterds won´t release me from slavery, instead they say I can trade one slavery, military duty for another slavery civil duty. I still have one year left of education, I do not wish to ruin my education, so I will have to fill out another form releasing me from duty as long as I am a student, but however when I am done studying I will probantly go to trial and get locked up for awhile, cheers. In about a years time look out for a poor fellow sentenced to jail.

 

 

 

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Rcder replied on Fri, Jul 13 2012 2:28 PM

Lying in and of itself does not violate property rights.  If A tells B "I'll give you $100 next week" and A reneges then B cannot justly call for legal action against A; B's property wasn't damaged by A's actions.  However, if B exchanges a car with A on the promise of $100 in a week's time and A fails to make the payment then this is clearly a case of fraud and B is perfectly in the right to sue A for implicit theft.

The government's "property" is not being damaged by you lying to them about being a pacifist.  Therefore, under a propertarian conception of ethics, the action wouldn't be considered immoral. 

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Rcder replied on Fri, Jul 13 2012 2:30 PM

So these basterds won´t release me from slavery, instead they say I can trade one slavery, military duty for another slavery civil duty. I still have one year left of education, I do not wish to ruin my education, so I will have to fill out another form releasing me from duty as long as I am a student, but however when I am done studying I will probantly go to trial and get locked up for awhile, cheers. In about a years time look out for a poor fellow sentenced to jail.

Why would you go to prison?  You're not draft dodging if you get an abstention from military service for reasons of pursuing an education.

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Madsen replied on Fri, Jul 13 2012 4:09 PM

The thing is, I get redrafted every six months, and when I am done with my education, next summer, I can not prospone it anymore and they will if I do not meet up send the police after me.

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David K. replied on Fri, Jul 13 2012 7:57 PM

[...] but however when I am done studying I will probantly go to trial and get locked up for awhile, cheers. In about a years time look out for a poor fellow sentenced to jail.

 

This reminds me of why I hate the State (as opposed to merely seeing it as inefficient or undesirable). People who imprison others for refusing to be their slaves are contemptible.

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Anenome replied on Sat, Jul 14 2012 12:41 AM

When, I think it was, the Dutch socialized their healthcare system, tons of doctors tried to flee the country to avoid the oncoming disaster sure to follow.

They were prevented from doing so by being drafted into the military. Can you freakin' believe that? Disgusting.

Autarchy: rule of the self by the self; the act of self ruling.
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Youd still have to do civil duty. Sucks.

But at least 1 ur not gonna due, but the other u gonna be fucking bored.

Or you can join the military, after all it will teach u survival skills.

“Since people are concerned that ‘X’ will not be provided, ‘X’ will naturally be provided by those who are concerned by its absence."
"The sweetest of minds can harbor the harshest of men.”

http://voluntaryistreader.wordpress.org

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Madsen replied on Sun, Jul 15 2012 11:00 AM

I have formerly been in the military for 3 years, and trust me the national guards repetition training does not teach you shit. I have seen these elderly men laying on pink panter inflatebal madressess. I would compare it to a rather dull compingtripp. 

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