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Best Founding Father

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SkepticalMetal Posted: Mon, Sep 17 2012 7:27 PM

I was recently in a discussion about this in another thread.

 

I had originally thought that Thomas Jefferson had the best ideas of the Founders, and at one point I admired him very much. However, he did own slaves, he violated the property rights of Indians, and overall, seemed to be pretty hypocritical. There were a lot of other Founders who were the same way.

I know that there's no such thing as a perfect person, or more specifically, a perfect leader. But with the slavery issue, there were, back then, talks of abolitionism, so it wasn't like it was completely unheard of. And plus, was it not Thomas Jefferson who was so enthusiastic about private property being a natural right?

So far, the only Founder that I have found who I can identify with the most and who has the least hypocritcal record is John Adams. Who does everyone here believe is the best founder, and who was the worst? I think the worst was Hamilton, from everything that I've seen.

P. S. I know the majority of us on the forums don't believe in government altogether, including myself. This is just a thread finding the founder who agrees with the principles of anarchism the most, and who actually has a valid record of following those principles.

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Ron Paul.

“Since people are concerned that ‘X’ will not be provided, ‘X’ will naturally be provided by those who are concerned by its absence."
"The sweetest of minds can harbor the harshest of men.”

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...Best or worst?

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Ron Paul.

Geez, he's way older than I thought.

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aaron burr, the man that killed hamilton should jump to the top of anyone's list.

thomas paine!

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Wheylous replied on Mon, Sep 17 2012 7:54 PM

Adams? Mr. Alien and Sedition Acts himself?

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Oh shit.

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Wheylous replied on Mon, Sep 17 2012 8:04 PM

I'd go with Ben Franklin, but only because I don't know much about him besides

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both

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aaron burr, the man that killed hamilton should jump to the top of anyone's list.

thomas paine!

Aaron Burr, the one that basically stole money (he cut corners on a water infrastructure project then used the "leftover" money) to start a bank and annex part of the northwest expansion?

Hamilton might have been a d-bag, but Burr was worse.  Jefferson wanted him hanged, but couldn't convince Marshall.

Patrick Henry: The one that wanted certain religions taxed in Virginia?  Not his though.  His was the official religion of VA.

Adams? Mr. Alien and Sedition Acts himself?

To be fair, the OP merely stated that Adams was the most consistent...this is true.  He never made bones about the possibility that the government may need more power than the Founders were conceiving in it.

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What about John Jay? He seems like a pretty cool guy, in Master Chief terms.

trollface.jpg

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Wheylous replied on Mon, Sep 17 2012 8:09 PM

Fun fact:

Warren G. Harding, then a Republican Senator from Ohio, coined the phrase "Founding Fathers" in his keynote address to the 1916 Republican National Convention. He used it several times thereafter, most prominently in his 1921 inaugural address as President of the United States.[5]

 
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Wheylous replied on Mon, Sep 17 2012 8:10 PM

Maybe Hancock? He was supposedly a hands-off governor, but he did send a sheriff to quell the beginning of Shays Rebellion.

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I just used it because it's common and it's what came to mind. I know that when you think about it, it sounds douchebaggerish.

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That's funny.

The Founders weren't even dead before succeeding politicians started holding them and their writings as appeals to authority concerning political authority or legal precedent.

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cab21 replied on Mon, Sep 17 2012 8:12 PM

what are we refering to as the founding fathers, the ones who signed the constitution?

looking through the anti fed papers, there were still supporters of the confederation and state governments and local governments as such

i guess i would say say the writers of antifederalist papers

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Wheylous replied on Mon, Sep 17 2012 8:13 PM

Within the large group known as the "Founding Fathers", there are two key subsets: the Signers of the Declaration of Independence (who signed the United States Declaration of Independence in 1776) and the Framers of the Constitution (who were delegates to the Constitutional Convention and took part in framing or drafting the proposed Constitution of the United States). A further subset is the group that signed the Articles of Confederation.[2]

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Okay, I'm convinced. Thomas Lynch, Jr was the best.

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i guess i would say say the writers of antifederalist papers

And, luckily we don't know their names...

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Only the Fed papers authors are really well known. The Anti-fed papers were written by some people who you don't really hear too much about that often.

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Wheylous, here's a quote you may not have seen from Franklin.

 

“All the Property that is necessary to a man, for the conservation of the individual and the propagation of the species, is his natural right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all property superfluous to such purposes is the property of the publick, who, by their laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the welfare of the publick shall demand such disposition. He that does not like civil society on these terms, let him retire and live among savages.”

"Later they refer to regression analysis as 'the economist's favorite trick' (p. 161). Well I'm an economist, and my favorite trick has always been the old switcheroo." - Bob Murphy
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Wheylous replied on Mon, Sep 17 2012 8:55 PM

Oh my God that might be the first recorded instance of the Somali argument

ಠ_ಠ

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he also didnt want jews to be allowed to live in america.

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For more, see Tom Woods' blog post: http://www.tomwoods.com/blog/be-happy-with-your-cabbage-and-navy-beans-citizen/

 

(A brief digression: my favorite Franklin story comes from 1729, when debate arose in Pennsylvania over whether the colonial government should engage in yet another round of paper money inflation. Franklin came to the assistance of the inflationists in government by writing A Modest Inquiry into the Nature and Necessity of a Paper Currency, which helped get the inflationary policy through the Assembly. In return, guess whose print shop got the contract to print the money? Franklin noted that his “friends” in the Assembly, “who conceived I had been of some service, thought fit to reward me by employing me in printing the money, a very profitable job….”)

"Later they refer to regression analysis as 'the economist's favorite trick' (p. 161). Well I'm an economist, and my favorite trick has always been the old switcheroo." - Bob Murphy
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Esuric replied on Mon, Sep 17 2012 9:04 PM

Patrick Henry

"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."

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A lot of people admire him for the "Give me liberty or give me death" speech, but as Adam Kokesh said, that's basically saying that you're at the mercy of your oppressor and they have the authority to decide whether you get liberty or you don't.

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@SkepticalMetal

That seems to be the reality of the situation - then and now. Patrick Henry just acknowledged it.

"Later they refer to regression analysis as 'the economist's favorite trick' (p. 161). Well I'm an economist, and my favorite trick has always been the old switcheroo." - Bob Murphy
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but we are at their mercy, so give me liberty (which they have the authority to do by stopping their actions) or give me death.  I also dont think he was suggesting on giving them an 'easy' death...

he was just being a true gentlemen by giving them the choice.

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Benjamin Rush, because he is crazy.

 

Seriously though, Thomas Paine because he actually stood by his beliefs throughout his life and no one showed up at his funeral because of it. 

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Well, Common Sense is a great pamphlet.

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Hmm.

George bush washington was good.

“Since people are concerned that ‘X’ will not be provided, ‘X’ will naturally be provided by those who are concerned by its absence."
"The sweetest of minds can harbor the harshest of men.”

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Age of Reason still blows my mind. Whenever I read it. Thomas Paine was a good stylist. 

But really, how can he compare to a man who thought being black meant that you were infected with the leprosy? That is some really crazy stuff right there. In a way, Benjamin Rush was ahead of his time, he was already creating biologically racist junk before it really caught on. 

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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@Kelvin Silva

Oh yes, King George the Second.

 

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"Oh yes, King George the Second."

He wasn't so bad. They loved him before the French-Indian war XD

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Hamilton is the most fun

Paine is a nut job

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

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Nutty people are ALWAYS the most fun. 

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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The instant formal government is abolished, society begins to act. A general association takes place, and common interest produces common security. - Thomas Paine

what further evidence do you need?

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HumanActionJackson:

Wheylous, here's a quote you may not have seen from Franklin.

 

“All the Property that is necessary to a man, for the conservation of the individual and the propagation of the species, is his natural right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all property superfluous to such purposes is the property of the publick, who, by their laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the welfare of the publick shall demand such disposition. He that does not like civil society on these terms, let him retire and live among savages.”

 

 

I don't see why the quote is controversial. He's making the point that property is conventional as opposed to natural, while still leaving space for some sort of natural right

 

If I had to pick one, I'd go with Franklin. Guy might be the greatest American of all time not just founding father. 

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@Acrobat

I wouldn't say the quote is controversial. Just about everyone agrees with it, and the result is a tyrannical federal government and a herd of voting cattle that believes it's fine to agress against another as long as it is best for the public welfare. 

"Later they refer to regression analysis as 'the economist's favorite trick' (p. 161). Well I'm an economist, and my favorite trick has always been the old switcheroo." - Bob Murphy
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Well, I meant controversial in this localized context. Obviously is enjoys currency among many people beyond this message board. 

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