What is the most libertarian country on earth? What is the most libertarian country on earth that is politically stable and not subject to extreme shifts in policy?
Liechtenstein. A Catholic monarchy with low taxes and not much economic interventionism. Has no conscription, unlike Switzerland, because they have no military.
some info from cia.gov
"The best way to bail out the economy is with liberty, not with federal reserve notes." - pairunoyd
"The vision of the Austrian must be greater than the blindness of the sheeple." - pairunoyd
I don't just mean on economic grounds.
curious, sicsempertyrannis, is Liechtenstein totally free of regulation (except for the monarchy)? I know that even hong kong has communized land so I am naturally curious to see if there is another place more dignified in respecting the nature of man and reality than that asian island.
Further, is it true that Liechtenstein is in threat of loosing its low taxes due to EU laws?
As for the main question, what about new hampshire -I hear that it has pretty much no laws except for a few token PC ones.
Individualist: I don't just mean on economic grounds.
On what specific grounds do you mean then?
"Government is just a group of men and women doing business at the barrel of a gun." — Marc Stevens, No State Project
Byzantine:Relocate a bunch of , ahem, diversity there, and see how long those PC laws stay on the books. Or how long it takes all those oh-so-PC New Hampshireans to relocate to Portland.
You never miss a chance, do you, Byzantine?
"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."
Costa Rica is another tiny state with no army. It also offers tax breaks for foreign investors.
Don't forget Dominica. No military, and tax-free status for foreign businesses.
wikipedia: Dominica offers tax-free status to companies locating from abroad. It is not known how many companies benefit from the tax-free status because of the strict confidentiality the government enforces, although it is known many Internet businesses utilize Dominica for this reason.
Dominica offers tax-free status to companies locating from abroad. It is not known how many companies benefit from the tax-free status because of the strict confidentiality the government enforces, although it is known many Internet businesses utilize Dominica for this reason.
Byzantine: Man your smack is so fresh. Gimme a pound dawg.
Man your smack is so fresh. Gimme a pound dawg.
Legitimate business, and you know it.
And don't you embrace the delightful creative manipulation of language?
The difference between libertarianism and socialism is that libertarians will tolerate the existence of a socialist community, but socialists can't tolerate a libertarian community.
sicsempertyrannis: Liechtenstein. A Catholic monarchy with low taxes and not much economic interventionism. Has no conscription, unlike Switzerland, because they have no military.
I'd agree. Furthermore I'd say they have the soundest currency too, the CHF that is.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
I love the CHF. Mainly because it made me a little bit of money the other day.
sirmonty:I love the CHF. Mainly because it made me a little bit of money the other day.
Do divulge the details, please.
Abstract liberty, like other mere abstractions, is not to be found.
- Edmund Burke
Black Market: Individualist: I don't just mean on economic grounds. On what specific grounds do you mean then?
For example, someone said on here that Ireland, Singapore, and Hong Kong had more economic freedom than America. I'm pretty sure Singapore is not very libertarian, though.
Individualist: I'd also be concerned with other freedoms, like freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom pf bearing arms, etc.
I'd also be concerned with other freedoms, like freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom pf bearing arms, etc.
The only area I was unable to find any real info on was gun rights. Seems like they are pretty good on civil liberties. The Roman Catholic Church is the state church, but there is freedom of religion in their constitution so I doubt it amounts to much.
Individualist: For example, someone said on here that Ireland, Singapore, and Hong Kong had more economic freedom than America. I'm pretty sure Singapore is not very libertarian, though.
Not to mention all three of those have horrible gun laws.
Individualist:I'd also be concerned with other freedoms, like freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of bearing arms, etc.
sicsempertyrannis:The roman catholic church is the state church,
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Yea, those catholic states have a great history for their liberties.
I would argue that New Zealand is the freeist nation. Their military is small and inclusive, their police are benign and there is tons of land and not that many people; most importantly however their population cares little for the things that others do so long as it is not destructive. Yes, there are problems with their taxes on property and land and socialized medicine - however the nation is so lightly populated and the government so small that if you took yourself out of the system almost none would notice.
You can buy separate health care and insurance to remove yourself from the system and the NZ dollar isn't leveraged to the hilt. They also have quite a strong barter and trade community within the farmers and sheep herders.
I would seriously consider NZ if not for the giant spiders. Not going anywhere near there.
AndrewKemendo:Yes, there are problems with their taxes on property and land and socialized medicine - however the nation is so lightly populated and the government so small that if you took yourself out of the system almost none would notice.
Yeah, sounds very free, that is as long as you leave society.
Juan: sicsempertyrannis:The roman catholic church is the state church, What an amazing example of libertarianism at work, eh ?
If that the best case you've got against it being relatively free, try again. Norway also has a state church, and it doesnt seem to have stopped it from being as 'progressive' and socialist like the rest of Europe. In practice, state churches are meaningless now. Besides, I am sympathetic to the Hoppean view that monarchies are preferable to democratic republics.
Nowhere, however, did I claim that Leichtenstien was 'libertarian'. It is a state, after all.
Juan:What an amazing example of libertarianism at work, eh ?
As long as its a nominal state church then its a historical detail.
AndrewKemendo: Yea, those catholic states have a great history for their liberties.
We were not (well, I wasnt) talking about 'their histories'. I am speaking of the here and the now. Yes, NZ has decent gun laws considering what Australia's are like, but it has much more meddling in the economy and it has a military, unlike Leichtenstien.
I really hate to say this, as much as I feel (actually I know) that I am enslaved here, but the United States would have to be still on the top list. In terms of economic freedom, it's actually declining, but is still #6. Here is the list according to the Heritage foundation:
Rank
Country
Overall
Change
1
Hong Kong
90.0
+0.3
2
Singapore
87.1
-0.2
3
Australia
82.6
+0.4
4
Ireland
82.2
-0.3
5
New Zealand
82.0
+1.2
6
United States
80.7
7
Canada
80.5
8
Denmark
80.0
9
Switzerland
79.4
-0.1
10
United Kingdom
79.0
-0.5
The scores are out of 100, but the absolute score is Bogus in my opinion since they use more mainstream criterion for monetary policy. (You can have a central bank and Fiat money and get a 100%). It's quite absurd! I think we need to get some Austian influence in there and the scores will all drop by about 30 points.
In terms of Civil liberty, I know that Singapore doesn't do so well and I'm not sure about Hong Kong but I doubt that it is better the the US.
It may be that if one was to put it all together: Economic freedom + Civil freedom + Education + health care + ....., the US may actually still win, or at least come close to win. Of course the US has its military empire, so if we count that, we may actually be in worst shape. What this shows you is NOT how much the US is free, but how the rest of the world is in worst shape. For example, I think the US is still the best place if you want to home school your child (although that is always under threat also) But, perhaps Obama will change all that and finally put us where we belong. It is quite depressing!
sirmonty: I love the CHF. Mainly because it made me a little bit of money the other day.
Good for you there! Congrats!
However, the era of CHF as a "hard currency" are over, I'm afraid. That was just a cold war phenomena due to the Swiss central bank having to keep a certain amount of gold as backing for the currency it issued. Since the millenia such laws have unfortunately been abandoned in conformation with the EU, and the CHF nowadays is as much junk of a three-letter combination as any other. And maybe even a much riskier currency because all their financial sector will be annihilated soon...
It's not fascism when the government does it.
“We must spend now as an investment for the future.” - President Obama
laminustacitus: AndrewKemendo:Yes, there are problems with their taxes on property and land and socialized medicine - however the nation is so lightly populated and the government so small that if you took yourself out of the system almost none would notice. Yeah, sounds very free, that is as long as you leave society.
In case you havent noticed there is no inhabitable place currently that is not claimed by a state - even uninhabitable places are claimed.
AndrewKemendo: laminustacitus: AndrewKemendo:Yes, there are problems with their taxes on property and land and socialized medicine - however the nation is so lightly populated and the government so small that if you took yourself out of the system almost none would notice. Yeah, sounds very free, that is as long as you leave society. In case you havent noticed there is no inhabitable place currently that is not claimed by a state - even uninhabitable places are claimed.
You completely missed my point; note, I was being sarcastic.
you guys missed a nuanced detail. a small gov't that strongly protects property rights isnt automaticly more libertarian. since true libertarianism is upholding legitimatly derived property rights, not simply property titles. in places like hong kong and chile, lot of property is tainted with state favoratism
AndrewKemendo:Yea, those catholic states have a great history for their liberties.
Actually, they've been far better for liberties than the secular state has been. Religious states presume they have somebody to answer to, the Lord, and as far as I'm aware most religions forbid murder. At least Christianity does, which it what we're discussing. The secular state has nobody to answer to but it's self.
ProudCapitalist:And maybe even a much riskier currency because all their financial sector will be annihilated soon...
Why?
ProudCapitalist: sirmonty: I love the CHF. Mainly because it made me a little bit of money the other day. Good for you there! Congrats! However, the era of CHF as a "hard currency" are over, I'm afraid. That was just a cold war phenomena due to the Swiss central bank having to keep a certain amount of gold as backing for the currency it issued. Since the millenia such laws have unfortunately been abandoned in conformation with the EU, and the CHF nowadays is as much junk of a three-letter combination as any other. And maybe even a much riskier currency because all their financial sector will be annihilated soon...
Yeah I realize that. But the CHF still seems to be overall a bit more stable than other fiat currencies. Besides, I'm not heavily invested in the forex anyway. It is mostly just for a little play.
nazgulnarsil: I would seriously consider NZ if not for the giant spiders. Not going anywhere near there.
Wrong country, mate! The most dangerous animal/spider/reptile/anything NZ has is probably the domesticated horse. I challenge anyone to find a living non-human thing that can kill them in that country. No snakes, no big spiders, no crocs, nothing. It has to be the safest in the whole world with respect to danger from animals & insects.
NZ is an ideal place for a libertarian society, but they're nowhere near there yet. The new govt is making some interesting moves: repealing the law preventing the privatization of prisons, looking to slash ~10% of all govt budgets etc.
They are one of the most 'atheist' nations in the world, which seems to help with the more controversial of civil liberties. And there's enough of a current for it, so I suspect the legalization of marijuana is only a few years away. Fingers crossed!
a platonic charisma:They are one of the most 'atheist' nations in the world
Just as it was looking somewhat appealing...
New Zealand seems like a pretty cool place, tbh. Very beautiful there.
I think I'll stay and fight the good fight in the US, though.
GilesStratton: a platonic charisma:They are one of the most 'atheist' nations in the world Just as it was looking somewhat appealing...
Haha. Over 50% of the population are still Christians (at the last census, anyway). Probably won't be over 50% by the time the next one comes around though: (red=percent christian, blue=no religion, yellow=other)
GilesStratton: AndrewKemendo:Yea, those catholic states have a great history for their liberties. Actually, they've been far better for liberties than the secular state has been. Religious states presume they have somebody to answer to, the Lord, and as far as I'm aware most religions forbid murder. At least Christianity does, which it what we're discussing. The secular state has nobody to answer to but it's self.
Well actually I was under the impression that Christianity prohibited killing, rather than specifically murder. (This point is not as important, but I heard there is a level of argument that this was only meant to apply to Jews, considering actions held up as OK in the bible after the ten commandments).
But that didn't stop the Spanish Inquisition, or the crusaders, or the Dolfuss regime, or the Tsarist regime in Russia (&c)
Thedesolateone:But that didn't stop the Spanish Inquisition, or the crusaders, or the Dolfuss regime, or the Tsarist regime in Russia (&c)
Tzarist Russia was farely benign in comparison to the secular state. I never said religous states were flawless, otherwise I would support one. They're just preferable to the secular state.