A friend and I had a discussion, below are his comments...
"We can't have a libertarian situation where the chinese communists come in and buy off of individuals. You cant say its ok for me to sell my property to the chinese communist party using their own taxpayers money."
"Let's say we do what the LP want and eliminate the government. Then the Chinese communists come in and buy land off individuals who are now the sole actors on the continent. Do you agree with that?"
"If you don't then you have to restrict what people can do with their property. Unless you can bring it down [foriegn country] at the same time then it aint gonna work."
"But you can see the risk of not having the government their to protect against being gobbled up by communists. Most nations are tyrannical. They would swallow us if we allowed them to swamp us."
"Not with countries who share our culture and values ..... I would have free trade with the NZ, UK, Europe, Canada ...... and measured trade for the others that is only in our national interest."
"If the Chinese communists are subsidizing dairy cattle, then you cant say that a local farmer has to suffer because of that. Coz if you don't put a tariff up then everyone will buy the cheap milk from the Chinese communists slave drivers.""Eventually the aim is to destroy the Chinese government, and get a libertarian situation in China going. then we can have free trade. and no government etc"
"immigration is only a threat because socialism keeps people in poverty, and they all want to come here but that wouldn't be the case. we aim to make China libertarian and increase their living standard up to our level. then we can ease off.""when I say China i mean China + everywhere else in the 2nd and 3rd world. Africa, South America, Asia. middle east, but that's gonna take a long time you have to do things carefully to make sure they work for the long haul."
Thoughts? Your response?
Most people think this way. To them trade is a form of war. Free trade then is opening yourself to total war.
So when the foreigners sell us something they have automatically screwed us already, because they have profited. By the same token when foreigners buy something of ours up they have also screwed us up because now they have our stuff.
Who says we'd accept crappy Chinese fiat currency? If they trade in metals and commodities they are welcome to come buy and sell whatever they please. People need to get over Mercantilism already...
This is stupid.
Ok, after some thought - I believe the solution is that the individual can "sell" his property to the Chinese Government, but since the state can never legitimately own anything, their claim on the property is BUNK.
So, the individual takes money away from the state (it's better in their hands, than the gang of thieves writ large).
The property is then up for grounds / homesteadable. Whether the individual who "sold" the property to the foriegn government, still maintains ownership, or whether he has to give it up... I haven't had time to ponder.
scineram: This is stupid.
Thanks for nothing.
Conza88: Ok, after some thought - I believe the solution is that the individual can "sell" his property to the Chinese Government, but since the state can never legitimately own anything, their claim on the property is BUNK.So, the individual takes money away from the state (it's better in their hands, than the gang of thieves writ large).The property is then up for grounds / homesteadable. Whether the individual who "sold" the property to the foriegn government, still maintains ownership, or whether he has to give it up... I haven't had time to ponder.
Ok, after some thought - I believe the solution is that the individual can "sell" his property to the Chinese Government, but since the state can never legitimately own anything, their claim on the property is BUNK.So, the individual takes money away from the state (it's better in their hands, than the gang of thieves writ large).The property is then up for grounds / homesteadable. Whether the individual who "sold" the property to the foriegn government, still maintains ownership, or whether he has to give it up... I haven't had time to ponder.
No. The guy who sold the property has now no claim on it left.
The new owner is China, but only so long as no Chinese taxpayer comes up and takes this property for himself. He in turn must allow every other Chinese taxpayer who comes along to claim this property his piece.
It is like a descendant of a slave owning family. He is the owner of the land which formerly belonged to the plantation. But only so long as no direct descendant of one of the slaves from this plantation comes along to claim it. If he does then the land must pass to him.
But should afterwards a second descendant of a different slave come along then the first slave descendant must split his new land with the second one.
Conza88: Let me say right now there is one major argument he makes that concerns me; I point it out in the commentary. I am interested in what the othe rposters will say about it. A friend and I had a discussion, below are his comments... "We can't have a libertarian situation where the chinese communists come in and buy off of individuals. You cant say its ok for me to sell my property to the chinese communist party using their own taxpayers money." 1. What exactly is the problem? That the Chinese govt took money by force from its taxpayers? Do you pay your taxes voluntarily? If most people in the USA think they pay too much taxes, is it OK to sell things to the US govt? "Let's say we do what the LP want and eliminate the government. Then the Chinese communists come in and buy land off individuals who are now the sole actors on the continent. Do you agree with that?" What part of "Chinese Communists" bothers you? Are you racist? Do you have anything against Chinese people? Or is it the fact that they are Communists? Do you think that if they own a enough land here they can then declare a communist country here? It would still be libertarian. Or do you fear that they would import say half a billion armed Chinese Comunists onto the ranch they bought and take over? [truth is I don't know the answer to this q] Why are you smarter than the guy who owns the land? Don't you think he is worried too? "If you don't then you have to restrict what people can do with their property. Unless you can bring it down [foriegn country] at the same time then it aint gonna work." So Rush, you want to "bring down" 1.2 billion people. "But you can see the risk of not having the government their Your govt education is showing. learn to spell. to protect against being gobbled up by communists. Why should I trust the govt to protect my interests when it is clealrly interested in screwing me every possible way? Most nations are tyrannical. They would swallow us if we allowed them to swamp us." Guess what has happened right here by our govt? They are swallowing us. "Not with countries who share our culture and values ..... Translated into English, that says "white people". I would have free trade with the NZ, UK, Europe, Canada ...... Dunno, some of those Europeans are pretty dark skinned. and measured trade for the others that is only in our national interest." So we agree on something. Trade that is in our interest is OK. Now all that is missing is an education for you, so you can learn that ALL voluntary trade is in our interest. "If the Chinese communists are subsidizing dairy cattle, then you cant say that a local farmer has to suffer because of that. There are say 10,000 local farmers [I'm making up a number], and 300 million non farmers in the USA. So for every 1 farmer who loses by cheap milk prices, 30,000 people, including poor people, sick people, little hungry children, all gain. Way to go worrying about the national interest. Coz if you don't put a tariff up then everyone will buy the cheap milk So you admit "everyone" will benefit from lower prices. from the Chinese communists slave drivers." So right now today you have nothing Chinese in your house, you hypocrite. The Chinese govt is encouraging its "slaves" to buy gold. Were the Black slaves here ever encouraged to buy gold? Do you know of any slave anywhere in all history who had th emeans to buy gold? Maybe you mean they have no right to vote. That is easily taken care of. Let them vote in USA elections.Their vote will be just as meaningless as yours is. "Eventually the aim is to destroy the Chinese government, The aim of who? Why this incessant meddling in other peoples' affairs? and get a libertarian situation in China going. So we will use statism to impose libertarianism somewhere else, but not have it here. OK, that makes sense. then we can have free trade. and no government etc" Glad we agree that it is a desirable goal. "immigration is only a threat because socialism keeps people in poverty, and they all want to come here Allow me to let you in on a little secret. The more people there are here, the better off we are. Human beings are a valuable productive resource. It's like saying "oh I am so terrified that we will have all the oil and steel and gold in the world, horrors!" but that wouldn't be the case. we aim to make China libertarian No, that is not our aim. Our aim to make the USA libertarian. and increase their living standard up to our level. We are doing that right now. In fact, if we are to belive Peter Schiff, in a decade or two those "slaves" will be living much better than us, because they have a productive economy. then we can ease off.""when I say China i mean China + everywhere else in the 2nd and 3rd world. Africa, South America, Asia. middle east, but that's gonna take a long time you have to do things carefully to make sure they work for the long haul." The USA as is is not going to work in the long haul. It is collapsing before our very eyes, just like the Soviet Union and for the exact same reasons. Thoughts? Your response?
Let me say right now there is one major argument he makes that concerns me; I point it out in the commentary. I am interested in what the othe rposters will say about it.
1. What exactly is the problem? That the Chinese govt took money by force from its taxpayers? Do you pay your taxes voluntarily? If most people in the USA think they pay too much taxes, is it OK to sell things to the US govt?
What part of "Chinese Communists" bothers you? Are you racist? Do you have anything against Chinese people? Or is it the fact that they are Communists? Do you think that if they own a enough land here they can then declare a communist country here? It would still be libertarian. Or do you fear that they would import say half a billion armed Chinese Comunists onto the ranch they bought and take over?
[truth is I don't know the answer to this q]
Why are you smarter than the guy who owns the land? Don't you think he is worried too?
So Rush, you want to "bring down" 1.2 billion people.
"But you can see the risk of not having the government their
Your govt education is showing. learn to spell.
to protect against being gobbled up by communists.
Why should I trust the govt to protect my interests when it is clealrly interested in screwing me every possible way?
Most nations are tyrannical. They would swallow us if we allowed them to swamp us."
Guess what has happened right here by our govt? They are swallowing us.
"Not with countries who share our culture and values .....
Translated into English, that says "white people".
I would have free trade with the NZ, UK, Europe, Canada ......
Dunno, some of those Europeans are pretty dark skinned.
and measured trade for the others that is only in our national interest."
So we agree on something. Trade that is in our interest is OK. Now all that is missing is an education for you, so you can learn that ALL voluntary trade is in our interest.
"If the Chinese communists are subsidizing dairy cattle, then you cant say that a local farmer has to suffer because of that.
There are say 10,000 local farmers [I'm making up a number], and 300 million non farmers in the USA. So for every 1 farmer who loses by cheap milk prices, 30,000 people, including poor people, sick people, little hungry children, all gain. Way to go worrying about the national interest.
Coz if you don't put a tariff up then everyone will buy the cheap milk
So you admit "everyone" will benefit from lower prices.
from the Chinese communists slave drivers."
So right now today you have nothing Chinese in your house, you hypocrite.
The Chinese govt is encouraging its "slaves" to buy gold. Were the Black slaves here ever encouraged to buy gold? Do you know of any slave anywhere in all history who had th emeans to buy gold?
Maybe you mean they have no right to vote. That is easily taken care of. Let them vote in USA elections.Their vote will be just as meaningless as yours is.
"Eventually the aim is to destroy the Chinese government,
The aim of who? Why this incessant meddling in other peoples' affairs?
and get a libertarian situation in China going.
So we will use statism to impose libertarianism somewhere else, but not have it here. OK, that makes sense.
then we can have free trade. and no government etc"
Glad we agree that it is a desirable goal.
"immigration is only a threat because socialism keeps people in poverty, and they all want to come here
Allow me to let you in on a little secret. The more people there are here, the better off we are. Human beings are a valuable productive resource. It's like saying "oh I am so terrified that we will have all the oil and steel and gold in the world, horrors!"
but that wouldn't be the case. we aim to make China libertarian
No, that is not our aim. Our aim to make the USA libertarian.
and increase their living standard up to our level.
We are doing that right now. In fact, if we are to belive Peter Schiff, in a decade or two those "slaves" will be living much better than us, because they have a productive economy.
then we can ease off.""when I say China i mean China + everywhere else in the 2nd and 3rd world. Africa, South America, Asia. middle east, but that's gonna take a long time you have to do things carefully to make sure they work for the long haul."
The USA as is is not going to work in the long haul. It is collapsing before our very eyes, just like the Soviet Union and for the exact same reasons.
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It's easy to refute an argument if you first misrepresent it. William Keizer
Conza88:Your response?
States should at no time interfere with free association including voluntary exchange. Let the market find the most optimal resources of goods, instead of the method which inevitably restricts liberty. Does any state really need folks dreamin' up more hobgoblins in which to further raise the power of the state. Cui pensio.
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