I'm all for the free market. But I believe criminals of any kind should be hung. Some people seem to think that we have some kind of free market and that we need to let the government get out of the business. But this is not the case. We don't really have a free market. Not when elite business people and elitest politicians meet once a year to decide the course of the world. Not when elite decisions get made when the media doesn't know about it. We don't have a free market when many corporations work directly with the government. All of these people who have government connections, all of these people with elite bilderburg connections should be hung. It's not a violation of the free market to arrest criminals, especially who work for the federal government in a covert way. The CEO of google now is a bilderburg attendee.
You can't trust any of these types. It's not a left or right issue. These elitests who work for the bilderburg group- a committee of international elites-- are criminals. I guess what I'm saying is that I think one of the reason why most people who are for the free market get so much flack is because we don't have a free market-- not at least in our current state. Currently what we have now is kind of like fascism. The big business is in bed with the government and the government is cozying up nicely to them. We need to get rid of the whole system. We need to get rid a coercive form of government and get business out of government and get the government out of government. As long as these politicians are working with businessmen and making their policy directed at them we don't have a free market. It's not a left right thing. These people-- these are criminals and they should be hung. But, we don't really have a free market right now. So, I think it would be wrong to say that the free market has caused all our success. It's not the case. Our success is fake. You know this. I know this. We all know it.
It's important to criticize these big business traitors who really are governemnt agents. These frauds need to be arrested. The whole system needs to be changed.
A true free market is not fascism-- which is what we have now-- we have corporate fascism. A true free market is where government operates independenly from businesses and vice versa.
Would you all agree with me with my point that the elites that say they're private businesses but they really work for the government should be hung and have as much as the responsibility as the politicians do for this crisis?
I just think it's silly how some people make this into a left and right issue. The whole system needs to be changed. Until we get that done-- we won't ever have a free market.
No, hanging is silly. And violence in general against non-aggressors is immoral. I believe in making the statists themselves pay restitution for what they have forced upon other people, but I do not believe in starting a class war between the proximate beneficiaries of the state and everyone else. It is impossible to do business legally without having some affiliation with the state. If you want to execute anyone who is in bed with the government, say goodbye to well over 2/3 of the world's population.
Pro Christo et Libertate integre!
These people aren't non-aggressive. They are in bed with our government they run our country they run our wars. These people need to pay for the crimes they've committed.
Wasn't the ARPANET, the pre-cursor to the Internet, developed by the US Department of Defense? Nevermind the fact that it was the private sector that made the network what it is now.
To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process. Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!" Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."
SilentXtarian: These people aren't non-aggressive. They are in bed with our government they run our country they run our wars. These people need to pay for the crimes they've committed.
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO BUSINESS LEGALLY WIHTOUT BEING IN BED WITH THE GOVERNMENT. You're talking about organizing mass violence against just about everyone. Have fun with your Marxist class war.
Just a quick note: When you're using the word "hang" (as in a form of killing), the past tense is "hanged," not "hung."
Now, carry on.
"Anticapitalist theories share in common an inability to take human nature as it is. Rather than analyzing man as a complex creature, anticapitalist theories tend to focus on what the theorist wishes man to be." - Isaac Morehouse
Yes, the private sector may have developed the US department of defense. But if you think about it many of the key players of the internet have ties with the government and the CIA. Google has ties with the CIA we all know that. And other companies have ties with the NSA for the telecom wiretapping. I recommend reading the book The Shadow Factory. It exposes the telecom companies ties with the NSA and the like. We don't really have a free market. Like I said. We need to return to having a free market... but we don't have one right now.
MacFall: SilentXtarian: These people aren't non-aggressive. They are in bed with our government they run our country they run our wars. These people need to pay for the crimes they've committed. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO BUSINESS LEGALLY WIHTOUT BEING IN BED WITH THE GOVERNMENT. You're talking about organizing mass violence against just about everyone. Have fun with your Marxist class war.
It's not impossible to do it without the government. You're a libertarian correct?Free market=no government intervention.
It's not a Marx war. It's a free market war.
Freiheit: Just a quick note: When you're using the word "hang" (as in a form of killing), the past tense is "hanged," not "hung." Now, carry on.
Fine.
Also, just to clarify for the readers of this thread- I'm not a marxist I'm an anarchist.
I thought this would be interesting to quote:
It was established that those bankers who did not immediately fulfill their commitments would be declared bankrupt, and if they did not pay their debts within one year, they would fall into public disgrace, which would be proclaimed throughout Catalonia by a town crier. Immediately afterward, the banker would be beheaded directly in front of his counter, and his property sold locally to pay his creditors."
Huerta de Soto, Jesús, Money, Bank Credit and Economic Cycles, p. 76.
SilentXtarian: It's not impossible to do it without the government. You're a libertarian correct?Free market=no government intervention. It's not a Marx war. It's a free market war.
Try not using a government road in the course of business.
Daniel: SilentXtarian: It's not impossible to do it without the government. You're a libertarian correct?Free market=no government intervention. It's not a Marx war. It's a free market war. Try not using a government in the course of business.
Try not using a government in the course of business.
It's not so much that government is being used in the course of business. It's that these people say they're private but they're not. They're in bed with the bilderburg group. They're in bed with the global elite. They want to create an international court. They want the international central bank with regulatory power over other nations. They are in support of the cap and trade tax which doesn't directly address the problem of CO2. The problem isn't that government is being used with the course of businesses so much-- it's that the businesses are working for the government and the international elite.
SilentXtarian: It's not so much that government is being used in the course of business. It's that these people say they're private but they're not. They're in bed with the bilderburg group. They're in bed with the global elite. They want to create an international court. They want the international central bank with regulatory power over other nations. They are in support of the cap and trade tax which doesn't directly address the problem of CO2. The problem isn't that government is being used with the course of businesses so much-- it's that the businesses are working for the government and the international elite.
My bad. I meant to say "government road", but I think your reply still applies.
SilentXtarian: It's not impossible to do it without the government.
It's not impossible to do it without the government.
It is quite impossible to do business legally without being involved with government. To own a business legally is to have privilege from the state. I'm all for business owners breaking those laws, but very, very few people have the balls to do so. So when you say you want to kill those who are in bed with the state, you are talking about the slaughter of tens of millions of people, many of whom have never intentionally harmed another in their lives. That's not liberty, that's thuggery.
Also, when I read this:
SilentXtarian:bildeburg
that was when I realized I have no reason to take you seriously.
MacFall: SilentXtarian:bildeburg that was when I realized I have no reason to take you seriously.
Because he misspelled it, or because you are unaware of what the Bilderberg group does?
liberty student: MacFall: SilentXtarian:bildeburg that was when I realized I have no reason to take you seriously. Because he misspelled it, or because you are unaware of what the Bilderberg group does?
A conspiracy theorist is a person who, while being beaten and robbed in broad daylight by an armed gang, cannot stop raving about the pickpockets whom he believes are after his wallet.
MacFall:A conspiracy theorist is a person who, while being beaten and robbed in broad daylight by an armed gang, cannot stop raving about the pickpockets whom he believes are after his wallet.
What does that have to do with anything? Are you or are you not aware of what Bilderberg discusses, and who attends?
Calling people conspiracy theorists just means you have been compartmentalized and are a self-censor.
SilentXtarian:These people-- these are criminals and they should be hung.
Since when was it right to have criminals hanged?
The difference between libertarianism and socialism is that libertarians will tolerate the existence of a socialist community, but socialists can't tolerate a libertarian community.
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Worse yet, he's conflating the power elite with imaginary pickpockets. Honestly, the statists have no better allies than people who self censor and tease others about their curiousity regarding state power and planning.
I am perfectly aware of who the Bilderbergers are and what they do. It is as irrelevant as whether the Republicans or Democrats run the country. When I see people blaming the Bilderbergers for something, I see no more reason to listen to them than I do when they blame it on whichever party they are not a member of.
Chasing unprovable allegations about the NWO and the Bilderbergers and the Jews and the lizard-people and chemtrails and flouride and mind-control devices and who actually was responsible for 9/11 down labrynthine rabbit holes is a big freaking waste of time. The problem is THE STATE.
Yeah, but it's not a free market when the corporate elitists are in bed with the government getting bailed out and not allowed to let market forces take over so more honest and profitable businesses can take over. There is a blur and I don't see how some businesses are not actually governmental. Once they have the power of government monopoly then they are not in the free market anymore. Yes this is the game and they play it well to continue, but there is a point when they would have a choice. I find it difficult to believe that some of these corporations would not ask the government to use coercion to achieve their goals. All businesses are not honest and they actively are involved in making this State game play to their advantage. These certain businesses get laws changed in their favor at times through Congress to keep their high stakes game going without competition free market forces being able to topple them. Bailouts are a fact. Goldman Sachs for one has former employees all throughout the government and they are running the show now. And they are not just in the U.S. government but have former employees in Europe too.
MacFall:I am perfectly aware of who the Bilderbergers are and what they do.
Then why would you dismiss it as conspiracy?
MacFall:It is as irrelevant as whether the Republicans or Democrats run the country.
No it isn't. It's bi-partisan, or rather post-partisan, and therefore 100% pure statist.
MacFall:When I see people blaming the Bilderbergers for something, I see no more reason to listen to them than I do when they blame it on whichever party they are not a member of.
I don't think you have a clue about who is in Bilderberg, or what they do.
MacFall:Chasing unprovable allegations about the NWO and the Bilderbergers and the Jews and the lizard-people and chemtrails and flouride and mind-control devices and who actually was responsible for 9/11 down labrynthine rabbit holes is a big freaking waste of time.
And we're back to the conspiracy slander in the absence of any real knowledge.
MacFall:The problem is THE STATE.
The problem is you. We're talking about THE STATE and you are mocking people for it. And now I think it is clear, you are mocking it out of prejudice and ignorance, not because anyone has posted anything factually incorrect.
I wanted to re-post this because you are conflating anti-semitism with me or anyone else who talks about Bilderberg.
Your only capacity for the discussion of alternative views is to strawman and bait racism.
liberty student: MacFall:Chasing unprovable allegations about the NWO and the Bilderbergers and the Jews and the lizard-people and chemtrails and flouride and mind-control devices and who actually was responsible for 9/11 down labrynthine rabbit holes is a big freaking waste of time. I wanted to re-post this because you are conflating anti-semitism with me or anyone else who talks about Bilderberg. Your only capacity for the discussion of alternative views is to strawman and bait racism.
Which goes to show MacFall is actually being the spreader of lies and conspiracy. Cause MacFall just spewed this out of the blue out of MacFall's own mental ghosts. Sad when somebody has to turn to such vices to try to gain control of a situation.
I can't believe I'm in a forum full of serious intellectuals who are actually concerned about the Bilderbergers. There is plenty of hard and brilliant evidence that the state is evil. You don't need to go weaving vast webs of theory (because that's all it is) about clandestine organizations who want to rule the world. All you're doing is muddying the water. The Bilderberg organization is a freaking social club. The fact that rich and powerful people hang out there is obvious; the fact that some of those people are state affiliates is incidental. Might as well say the Fortune 500 and the Masons are NWO conspirators.
MacFall: I can't believe I'm in a forum full of serious intellectuals who are actually concerned about the Bilderbergers. There is plenty of hard and brilliant evidence that the state is evil. You don't need to go weaving vast webs of theory (because that's all it is) about clandestine organizations who want to rule the world. All you're doing is muddying the water. The Bilderberg organization is a freaking social club. The fact that rich and powerful people hang out there is obvious; the fact that some of those people are state affiliates is incidental. Might as well say the Fortune 500 and the Masons are NWO conspirators.
Well public, State officials are not to meet behind closed doors in these kinds of situations it's against their law. But when don't they break their own laws. Other than that, I don't know enough about Bilderberger and such.
MacFall: I can't believe I'm in a forum full of serious intellectuals who are actually concerned about the Bilderbergers.
I can't believe I'm in a forum full of serious intellectuals who are actually concerned about the Bilderbergers.
I can't believe you bait people by conflating them with anti-semites.
MacFall:You don't need to go weaving vast webs of theory (because that's all it is) about clandestine organizations who want to rule the world.
This is a strawman. Who weaved a web of theory? And what theory is that? Your strawman or your stereotype?
MacFall:The Bilderberg organization is a freaking social club.
By their own admission, it is not. They meet to discuss policy, not play cards.
Three questions,
Wow! This thread has been derailed beyond repair. Reminds me of RonPaulForums.com. lol
Gah. I didn't mean to make this thread about a new world order theory. Of course the people there meet to discuss policiies and global events. It may also be a meeting grounds for the global elite... but it's illegal for them to do it without the press or with that kind of veil of secrecy hence the conspiracies surrounding the group and the influence and power that the group has (otherwise why would they do it in secret if they weren't discussing evil things)?
The whole reason I brought that up was because you can't really trust for businessmen NOT to be working with the government in some way or another. These people that go to this meeting are congressman, senators, and CEOs, and leaders from other countries. It's not some coffee shop talk place.
All I was saying was that since the politicians are so close to these businessmen that go to these meetings-- that it's hard to call them private companies since these bilderbergers obviously have vested interest in them.
Are there any people throughout the history of the Bilderberg group that have come out and blown the whistle? I would love to read something written by such a person.
My exposure to these theories of NWO and Bilderberg group have been through Alex Jones videos on YouTube. I have to say that they alone amount to little more than conspiracy theory. No one has any proof, it is all conjecture and paranoia. That being said, I didn't think the movies were without value. It did lead me to start looking into it more myself. After doing my own (unfinished) research, I am currently of the opinion that we are already have a weak one world government, and it is getting stronger as time goes on. The reason I think it is getting stronger isn't because of a calculated effort behind the scenes by bankers, CEOs, heads of state, etc. I think it is getting stronger because people honestly believe that what they are doing is a good thing. It's not as behind doors as Alex Jones seems to indicate, it's actually quite in the open. Keynesian economics, "Global New Deal", global warming treaties, the war on terror - it's all out in the open I don't think you need to resort to some new theory to explain the direction we're going in.
That, by the way, is my rational basis for disregarding conspiracy theories - we don't need to invent a conspiracy to explain what is happening, there are pre-existing natural forces at work. Namely, that progressives are strong idealogues and they believe their ideas will save humanity. They are quite open about it.
kurlare:Are there any people throughout the history of the Bilderberg group that have come out and blown the whistle?
The agendas, locations and attendance lists are leaked.
kurlare:My exposure to these theories of NWO and Bilderberg group have been through Alex Jones videos on YouTube. I have to say that they alone amount to little more than conspiracy theory. No one has any proof, it is all conjecture and paranoia.
There is a lot of hard proof. Maybe your lack of success comes from trying to educate on YouTube or from Alex Jones.
kurlare:That, by the way, is my rational basis for disregarding conspiracy theories - we don't need to invent a conspiracy to explain what is happening, there are pre-existing natural forces at work
That may be true, although I don't quite understand where people intellectually come from when they say they disregard or disbelieve conspiracies. Bush committed conspiracy to torture. Cheney committed conspiracy to attack Iraq. We don't have all of the proof, but we have enough to know that they worked in secret to accomplish those tasks and goals. Likewise, the Bilderbergers meet and discuss international policy, relations etc. They drive in and out under heavy guard, they shun the media, black tinted windows (they are scared to be seen) and they try to hide and shift the location. In Canada, they even had agent provocateurs try to frame the protesters as violent radicals. So obviously, by definition, what they are doing is conspiratorial and pretty darn serious, at least in their own opinion.
It is naive to think that people do not conspire. That the progressive are just ideologues who get lucky. These people plan and start wars, and have for several centuries. Anyone who tells you Bush was too dumb to do 9/11 (I'm not saying he did) only has to look at how he got a UN army together to go into Iraq based on total lies and fabrication of evidence. The Downing Street Memos are proof of conspiracy.
The people who go to Bilderberg are the same people who own the mainstream press that under-reports anything controversial or paints government in a bad light. The same people who tried to pretend Ron Paul didn't exist when he was breaking campaign finance records.
I mean, if people want to believe that there are no secrets, and there is no value in mocking and pointing out the elites when they go to their secret meetings, so be it. I just don't like being labeled a kook because I think they are intelligent and cunning, instead of fanatical and clumsy. I'd rather err on overestimating my opponent than underestimating him.
1. Can you link me to the agendas, locations and attenance lists?
2. You yourself stated that you were about to go all Alex Jones on this thread. If he's not reputable then why are you going all Alex Jones?
To clarify why it isn't rational to accept conspiracy theories: If there is a simpler explanation, the burden of proof rests on those who wish to offer a more complex one. Occams razor.
I think you and I are talking a little bit past eachother - which is normal before you define your terms. Anyway, I didn't mean to imply that progressive idealogues just got lucky and are not 'conspiring' or 'planning' in any sense at all. They are certainly working together and planning to implement their vision of the world. They don't see individuals like you and I do - they see aggregates, everywhere aggregates! They are conceited, arrogant fucks. I will believe that they are a series of individuals motivated by progressive ideology and lust for personal fame and power before I believe they are part of some cabal. As far as the press goes, of course huge corporations and politicians hate Ron Paul. He would end corporate and social welfare, which are the life blood for many corporations and politicians. The media is incredibly corrupt, I agree. Nevertheless I don't think they Rachel Maddow, Sean Hannity, or Jon Stewart are pawns of the NWO.
And I definitely do not think you are a kook, I just think there are simpler explanations and we don't need to go as far as Alex Jones does to explain what is happening. It's an interesting discussion because in the end you and I both agree that what is happening is sinister in nature - whether orchestrated by a cabal or by individuals living out their corrupt ideologies.
kurlare:1. Can you link me to the agendas, locations and attenance lists?
Google for them. There is a lot of information posted online. As I told another individual, check out Daniel Estulin. He is able to get information from directly within the conferences.
kurlare:2. You yourself stated that you were about to go all Alex Jones on this thread. If he's not reputable then why are you going all Alex Jones?
That was another thread and regarding another topic.
kurlare:To clarify why it isn't rational to accept conspiracy theories: If there is a simpler explanation, the burden of proof rests on those who wish to offer a more complex one. Occams razor.
I'm not here to prove anything. The facts about Bilderberg speak for themselves, and neither the OP or I said anything that would indicate we were anti-semitic or obsessive about 9/11, lizard people etc.
kurlare:I just think there are simpler explanations and we don't need to go as far as Alex Jones does to explain what is happening.
I don't know that Alex was sourced in this thread. I also happen to know that concerns about Bilderberg, the CFR, Tri-Lateral Commission etc go back before Alex was born.
This is the problem with MacFall's statements. He's assuming something not said. He (perhaps not you) assumes that anyone who talks about Bilderberg must be an anti-semite or into David Icke's theory about lizard people. He's reactionary, ignorant on this topic and close minded. Obviously there are nuanced opinions, and mine is very close to Ron Paul's.
But on the internet, this is normal. You get people who don't like certain topics, and they try to shut down discussion by name calling or making up strawmen. It usually doesn't happen as much here as on other forums. People here *generally* are capable of looking for, and understanding nuance.
Most of them.
Here is what I said:
Chasing unprovable allegations about the NWO and the Bilderbergers and the Jews and the lizard-people and chemtrails and flouride and mind-control devices and who actually was responsible for 9/11 down labrynthine rabbit holes is a big freaking waste of time.
So that's quite enough of you accusing me of accusing you of antisemitism. Cut that bullshit out. I never said you were an anti-semite, nor that you believed in lizard people. I simply listed off all the conspiracy theories I could think of and said that they a waste of time, from 9/11 truth to the lizardjewberger aliens. Doesn't matter which you believe in, nor does believing in one and not the others make it any less a waste of time.
MacFall:So that's quite enough of you accusing me of accusing you of antisemitism. Cut that bullshit out. I never said you were an anti-semite, nor that you believed in lizard people.
Then why did you bring it up?
MacFall:I simply listed off all the conspiracy theories I could think of and said that they a waste of time, from 9/11 truth to the lizardjewberger aliens. Doesn't matter which you believe in, nor does believing in one and not the others make it any less a waste of time.
But Bilderberg is not a fantasy. It is a matter of historical record. They were meeting in Greece last week, and the London Guardian sent someone to cover it, he was arrested twice for taking photos of the cars going in to the meeting area, then followed by the Greek police the remainder of the time he was there.
How you can claim that such obvious statism is on par with racism or aliens is mind boggling.
Anyway, I took a quick look on Wikipedia [1] [2], there is a lot of info there, including locations and guest lists.
And apparently wikileaks has just recently posted meeting reports that were discovered when the firm in charge of maintaining them went belly up. EDIT: I just took a quick look, and this stuff is amazing. They talk about how they prefer Rockefeller over Kennedy for President, on whether it is good policy to use U2 spyplanes, and the construction of a European trade block similar to Gatt. Now this is interesting crap because it lets you see what statists talk about and what they think is important. Anyway...
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Series/Bilderberg_reports
I didn't even want to talk about Bilderberg. Folks, don't confuse reality with aliens. Do your research. Apologies to the OP.
liberty student: MacFall:So that's quite enough of you accusing me of accusing you of antisemitism. Cut that bullshit out. I never said you were an anti-semite, nor that you believed in lizard people. Then why did you bring it up?
Because it was relevant. But bringing something up does not mean that I am saying you believe in it.
- I say that some conspiracy theorists are antisemitic.
- I point out that you are a conspiracy theorist.
- You conclude that I have said that you are antisemitic.
That's called a logical fallacy. So is drawing from my statement that worrying about the Bilderbergers is a waste of time, that I must not believe in the Bilderbergers.
That's the thing about consipracy theorists - logical fallacies out the whazzoo. You point out that you don't care what clubs they are in or call researching it a waste of time or say you haven't reached the same conclusions, or decide you don't want to spend the hours of time doing the research that convinced them, and that somehow makes you a gatekeeper.
Every second you spend hacking at branches is time that you could be spending striking the root. It's not that I deny the branches exist. It's just that they do not deserve attention. On that note, this will be my last reply to this conversation. I should have learned long ago not to argue with conspiracy theorists, back when 9/11 truth was trendy.
MacFall:Because it was relevant. But bringing something up does not mean that I am saying you believe in it.
It was not relevant. And you deliberately brought it up to conflate conspiracy theory with Bilderberg, when anyone with a little sincerity and the capacity to use Google can verify it is in fact a very real thing.
MacFall:- I point out that you are a conspiracy theorist.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I have not said anything that is not substantiated by evidence. Plain, public evidence.
Care to refute that? Can you source and refute anything I have said?
MacFall:You point out that you don't care what clubs they are in or call researching it a waste of time or say you haven't reached the same conclusions, or decide you don't want to spend the hours of time doing the research that convinced them, and that somehow makes you a gatekeeper.
Sure, you claim they are in a club (they are not), now you claim you won't waste time researching something you claim to already have knowledge of, and you don't draw conclusions from facts, but choose to present false arguments and diminish the capacity and character of the people whose ideas you are so upset over.
Let's face it, you had no idea what you were talking about, and you still do not. All you have offered is strawmen and Ad homs, not one iota of knowledge.
MacFall:On that note, this will be my last reply to this conversation.
A good decision, since you have nothing tangible to offer to the discussion.