History question: Who was the "Founding Father" of libertarianism?
Frederic Bastiat?
Lysander Spooner?
Other?
Rabbi Hillel ?
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
nirgrahamUK: Rabbi Hillel ?
Maybe Mattathias the Hasmonean?
"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."
I only know that crazy bitch, Ayn Rand, is one of the founding mothers of libertarianism.
http://libregamewiki.org - The world's only encyclopedia on free(as in freedom) gaming.
Hans-Hermann Hoppe.
Seriously though, I'd have to say Ludwig von Mises, without von Mises' economics libertarianism would be so irrelevant.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
Hesiod.
The Morning Star: Hesiod.
what did hesiod say? got any good links?
Serious comments, please.
Indeed.
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
John Locke? And perhaps Jean-Baptiste Say from an economic point of view? Or as the founding father of Austrianism, Carl Menger?
But really, we probably ought to take anarcho-socialists into consideration as well. As far as I can tell, the first ones to oppose the state in regard to personal freedom were the anarcho-socialists. I believe Rothbard was the first one to actually produce a capitalist/free-market theory in opposition to the state.
There is no founding father of libertarianism, libertarianism is emergent from a whole bunch of different people.
Brainpolice: There is no founding father of libertarianism, libertarianism is emergent from a whole bunch of different people.
Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu: John Locke? And perhaps Jean-Baptiste Say from an economic point of view? Or as the founding father of Austrianism, Carl Menger? But really, we probably ought to take anarcho-socialists into consideration as well. As far as I can tell, the first ones to oppose the state in regard to personal freedom were the anarcho-socialists. I believe Rothbard was the first one to actually produce a capitalist/free-market theory in opposition to the state.
I assume we're talking about modern history as natural rights can be traced back to Aristotle's conception of "natural justice".
In modern times I would say that Adam Smith was the founder of pragmatic libertarianism (preference utilitarianism), while natural rights go back to John Locke.
Molinari.
nirgrahamUK: what did hesiod say? got any good links? There was a nice recent article on Mises briefly concerning Hesiod's proto-libertarianism. | Post Points: 5
GilesStratton:Molinari.
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
I don't know about father of libertarianism, but Hesiod was bad-ass. In his Works and Days, he distinguishes between good and bad strife (Eris) as between the healthy competition of the economic means of acquiring wealth and the injustice of the political means of acquiring wealth.
So, after all, there was not one kind of Strife alone, but all over the earth there are two. As for the one, a man would praise her when he came to understand her; but the other is blameworthy: and they are wholly different in nature. For one fosters evil war and battle, being cruel: her no man loves; but perforce, through the will of the deathless gods, men pay harsh Strife her honour due. But the other is the elder daughter of dark Night, and the son of Cronos who sits above and dwells in the aether, set her in the roots of the earth: and she is far kinder to men. She stirs up even the shiftless to toil; for a man grows eager to work when he considers his neighbour, a rich man who hastens to plough and plant and put his house in good order; and neighbour vies with is neighbour as he hurries after wealth. This Strife is wholesome for men. And potter is angry with potter, and craftsman with craftsman, and beggar is jealous of beggar, and minstrel of minstrel. Perses, lay up these things in your heart, and do not let that Strife who delights in mischief hold your heart back from work, while you peep and peer and listen to the wrangles of the court-house. Little concern has he with quarrels and courts who has not a year's victuals laid up betimes, even that which the earth bears, Demeter's grain. When you have got plenty of that, you can raise disputes and strive to get another's goods.
So, after all, there was not one kind of Strife alone, but all over the earth there are two. As for the one, a man would praise her when he came to understand her; but the other is blameworthy: and they are wholly different in nature. For one fosters evil war and battle, being cruel: her no man loves; but perforce, through the will of the deathless gods, men pay harsh Strife her honour due. But the other is the elder daughter of dark Night, and the son of Cronos who sits above and dwells in the aether, set her in the roots of the earth: and she is far kinder to men. She stirs up even the shiftless to toil; for a man grows eager to work when he considers his neighbour, a rich man who hastens to plough and plant and put his house in good order; and neighbour vies with is neighbour as he hurries after wealth. This Strife is wholesome for men. And potter is angry with potter, and craftsman with craftsman, and beggar is jealous of beggar, and minstrel of minstrel.
Perses, lay up these things in your heart, and do not let that Strife who delights in mischief hold your heart back from work, while you peep and peer and listen to the wrangles of the court-house. Little concern has he with quarrels and courts who has not a year's victuals laid up betimes, even that which the earth bears, Demeter's grain. When you have got plenty of that, you can raise disputes and strive to get another's goods.
And in contrast with Homer who supported the divine right of kings, Hesiod recognized a law above the law of political authorities, who are corruptible.
let us settle our dispute here with true judgement which is of Zeus and is perfect. For we had already divided our inheritance, but you seized the greater share and carried it off, greatly swelling the glory of our bribe-swallowing lords who love to judge such a cause as this.
While other poets glorified the political class of kings and warriors, Hesiod sang of the honest working man who parasites like Agamemnon and Achilles leached off of.
Austrian Theory of the Business Cycle in 9 steps (Soliciting comments)
I totoally forgot about Molinari. He would indeed be a good candidate for the founder of actual, modern libertarianism. I should start calling myself a Molinarist, then when people get curious they aren't turned off by the term "libertarian" which they undoubtedly have biases about from hearing us described as cranks on TV so often.
John Locke's property theory was absolutely essential for libertarianism as an intellectual stance. But, it doesn't take philosophy to recognize natural property rights on a gut level. Therefore, I nominate whoever is to be considered as the first human being. Such a man, long before the false legitimacy of state theft and murder, knew all he needed to know of libertarianism.
I started a nation in Nation States 2 called Molinaria after the dude.
Juan:then I probably agree with you Giles
Crazy.
GilesStratton: Molinari.
Like the Salame?
http://www.molinarisalame.com/
Where I come from, the women don't glow, but the men definitely plunder.
Well Rothbard was the one who tied up all the loose ends, made it into an all encompassing system, and drove home all of its conclusions. But obviously it existed before him already. However it was developing rather slowly (since people didn`t even necessarily know they`re developing it) so it is very hard to credit one thinker at the expense of another. But the starter yes, could well be said to have been Molinari because he was the first to make a conclusion of the sort that Classical Liberalism shied away from. But he is really more of a "first spark" than a "founding father". I mean he didn`t think he founded anything, he didn`t even call himself a libertarian.
Daniel J. Sanchez: Therefore, I nominate whoever is to be considered as the first human being. Such a man, long before the false legitimacy of state theft and murder, knew all he needed to know of libertarianism.
I like that one
In the begining there was nothing, and it exploded.
Terry Pratchett (on the big bang theory)
Marko: Well Rothbard was the one who tied up all the loose ends, made it into an all encompassing system, and drove home all of its conclusions. But obviously it existed before him already. However it was developing rather slowly (since people didn`t even necessarily know they`re developing it) so it is very hard to credit one thinker at the expense of another. But the starter yes, could well be said to have been Molinari because he was the first to make a conclusion of the sort that Classical Liberalism shied away from. But he is really more of a "first spark" than a "founding father". I mean he didn`t think he founded anything, he didn`t even call himself a libertarian.
Spooner seems, to me, to be a mostly libertarian fellow. What decade did what we now call libertarianism gain prominence, even of the Spooner level, in America? Of course, if Spooner wasn't mostly libertarian, I'd like the details.
I would have to go with Rothbard, as he was the first to produce an integrated, total theory of liberty from both the utilitarian and ethical standpoints. And he was certainly a major figure in turning the theory into a movement. There were others before him without whose contributions he probably would not have formed such a body of thought, but they lacked essential elements that would have made them true libertarians.
Pro Christo et Libertate integre!
MacFall: I would have to go with Rothbard, as he was the first to produce an integrated, total theory of liberty from both the utilitarian and ethical standpoints. And he was certainly a major figure in turning the theory into a movement. There were others before him without whose contributions he probably would not have formed such a body of thought, but they lacked essential elements that would have made them true libertarians.
*That's my term for "anarcho-capitalist". If anyone thinks that term has flaws, I'll have to start another thread.
In Economic Thought Before Adam Smith, Rothbard calls Hesiod the first 'economist'. Plato he calls a right-wing collectivist utopian (whoop). To quote him from this work in reference to this thread, "The Taoists were the world's first libertarians, who beleived in virtually no interference by the state in economy and society". To go a little further, "Lao Tzu... came to his penetrating conclusion: "The more artificial taboos there are in the world, the more the people are impovrished... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be'.". He states Chuang Tzu his follower built on his masters ideas of laissez-faire and pushed them to their logical conclusion: individualist-anarchism. Chaung Tzu was also the first to work on the idea of 'spontaneous order'. 'Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone'. "Taoist thought flourished for several centuries, culminating in the most determinedly anarchistic thinker, Pao Ching-yen."
I hope that helps with your question Mr. Chambers. I reccomend you read An Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought.
Good day.
Individualism Rocks
Bank Run: In Economic Thought Before Adam Smith, Rothbard calls Hesiod the first 'economist'. Plato he calls a right-wing collectivist utopian (whoop). To quote him from this work in reference to this thread, "The Taoists were the world's first libertarians, who beleived in virtually no interference by the state in economy and society". To go a little further, "Lao Tzu... came to his penetrating conclusion: "The more artificial taboos there are in the world, the more the people are impovrished... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be'.". He states Chuang Tzu his follower built on his masters ideas of laissez-faire and pushed them to their logical conclusion: individualist-anarchism. Chaung Tzu was also the first to work on the idea of 'spontaneous order'. 'Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone'. "Taoist thought flourished for several centuries, culminating in the most determinedly anarchistic thinker, Pao Ching-yen." I hope that helps with your question Mr. Chambers. I reccomend you read An Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought. Good day.
You question: "Who was the "Founding Father" of libertarianism?"
A simple answer: Lao Tzu
Richard Chambers: An Austrian economist is not necessarily a libertarian, right? I thought some were theonomists.
An Austrian economist is not necessarily a libertarian, right? I thought some were theonomists.
A person could indeed understand principles of economics and also be unethical. On theonomy, I am a large fan of apotheism, that is whether there is or is not a god issues and ethics still stand.
Good luck with your studies.
Typing oops. Apatheism. Sorry.
Also; Ssu-ma Ch'ien was one of the world's first monetary theorists. He also set forth the funtion of entreprenuership.
Been a while since I was on, I guess the edit function has been redacted?
Richard Chambers:That's my term for "anarcho-capitalist". If anyone thinks that term has flaws, I'll have to start another thread.
Anarcho-capitalists are not democrats. Start a new thread.
Richard Chambers: History question: Who was the "Founding Father" of libertarianism? Frederic Bastiat? Lysander Spooner? Other?
Bank Run: On theonomy, I am a large fan of apotheism, that is whether there is or is not a god issues and ethics still stand.
On theonomy, I am a large fan of apotheism, that is whether there is or is not a god issues and ethics still stand.
Bank Run: Typing oops. Apatheism. Sorry.
Marko, I agree there must be a better word for what I mean. Is there a philogian in the house?
I then need a word to describe that facts are still the facts with or without the existence of a diety. Maybe we can create a word? Counter-theism, ethical-atheism, dietyles-argumentation, I don't know ideas anyone?
Kind regards
So when did the movement that Leonard Read was a part of gain any degree of noticeability?
On epistemological grounds, what about the sophists? and then, Diogene Laertes?
More recently, i'd go for Max Stirner, who is the first individualist anarchist.
Locke is a classical liberal on politics and his metaphysics are anything but libertarian; of course, his concept of self-ownership is one of the most valuable contributions to libertarian thinking, IMHO it still doesn't make him a full-blown libertarian.
M-la-maudite: and then, Diogene Laertes?
Diogenes Laertius was a biographer of philosophers. Do you mean Diogenes the Cynic?
M-la-maudite:IMHO it still doesn't make him a full-blown libertarian.
I don't think you need to be a complete libertarian to be considered the father of it.