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R.I.P Ron Paul's Audit the Fed BIll

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Conza88 replied on Fri, Oct 30 2009 10:28 PM

The situation was a win win proposition from the start. No matter what they did, the FED was screwed. This shows the system can in no way be reformed.

Actions like this will further push "limited government" folk and others into favoring the complete abolition of the state. Or at least completely adopt the argument from morality.

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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jmorris84 replied on Fri, Oct 30 2009 10:32 PM

I don't understand how the bill was removed of provisions. Can someone please help me understand how that happens?

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DD5 replied on Fri, Oct 30 2009 11:45 PM

 

This may have an upside. 

For a moment there, it seemed to many of the Ron Paul supporters that Democracy can actually work.  Maybe this will teach them a lesson. 

 Perhaps this outcome is more valuable to the freedom cause then the original bill actually passing.

I think Ron Paul knew this would happened anyway.  Maybe he's really that sophisticated and simply wanted to teach his supporters this lesson also.

 

Unfortunately, true reform may only rise from the ashes.

 

 

 

 

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Completely expected.  What an enormous waste of time and money pushing this bill.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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filc replied on Sat, Oct 31 2009 12:04 AM

liberty student:
Completely expected.  What an enormous waste of time and money pushing this bill.

Very dis-hearting but I don't know if it was a complete waste yet. The web hit-count of the mises site and RP site should give us the impression that all our endeavorer are at least getting us attention. I'm sorry LS, and everyone else. :(

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filc:
Very dis-hearting but I don't know if it was a complete waste yet.

You can't reform the system with the system.  I know people try hard, but they don't understand the incentives of politicians.  Of course they were going to block this.  They have blocked stuff like this before.  Bernanke was not sweating it.

filc:
The web hit-count of the mises site and RP site should give us the impression that all our endeavorer are at least getting us attention.

Well, ideas like yours, educational ideas deserve attention.  Convincing people that they can control Washington through phone calls and petitions was misguided at best.

filc:
I'm sorry LS, and everyone else. :(

No need to be sorry.  This is a learning experience for many people.  There are no shortcuts.  There is no magic bill or politician who will change things.  Change has to come slowly and progressively.  It has to be individual to individual.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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liberty student:

Completely expected.  What an enormous waste of time and money pushing this bill.

Wow! You would have been banned for life from RPFs for saying that. Stick out tongue

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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Conza88 replied on Sat, Oct 31 2009 2:27 AM

DD5:
Maybe this will teach them a lesson. 

If they haven't learnt already, then cognitive dissonance has got in the way. That goes for online supporters anyway. At Daily Paul they have learnt, the site owner Michael Nyrostorm is an anarcho-capitalist from what I know... and essentially every single blogger (on the front page) is too.

Over at RPF, the majority were and have. A few mods ruined it due to their ignorance... but the amusing thing is - the more they promote Ron Paul, the greater the likelihood more people are going to discover the LvMI, and then anarcho-capitalism... so they can't escape it. Big Smile

DD5:
Perhaps this outcome is more valuable to the freedom cause then the original bill actually passing.

I dunno about that. lol. Seeing who got given the billions and an audit would have gone a long way to destroying the Fed's credibility. But yeah, win win - the banksters own the political parasites. This makes it even clearer - if that was at all possible.

DD5:
I think Ron Paul knew this would happened anyway.  Maybe he's really that sophisticated and simply wanted to teach his supporters this lesson also.

Yes He is subtle like that. Imo, should he run again for President [Run against the presidency as it is currently understood], and I see absolutely no reason why he wouldn't as age plays absolutely no factor [All he has to do is stand up and talk], although I am sure the MSM will try bring it up because they have practically NOTHING on him. Unless they want to try throw out what they did last time - racism / conspiracy / kook / etc..

However, the debates will be different this time. The republicans are not in power and the war is not a massive issue. The Republicans will be using Libertarian talking points like you wouldn't believe.

Ron is going to have to differentiate himself by either calling them all out, or, by being more radical. Wink And since it will be his last 'shot' hopefully he will be, although I am unsure how he actually would be.. without explicitly stating it. Haha. Regardless though, he will garner more acceptance of Libertarianism in the public sphere.

liberty student:

Completely expected.  What an enormous waste of time and money pushing this bill.

Of course it was just a matter of time but Ron knew that, lol. I don't think it was a complete waste. He did get some hearings on the issue... Mr Woods going to Washington to testify. Hehe.

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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Giant_Joe replied on Sat, Oct 31 2009 8:30 AM

I'm a newb when it comes to the process, but can't he just make another HR 1207? (with a different number of course)

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Conza88:
Of course it was just a matter of time but Ron knew that, lol. I don't think it was a complete waste.

I wrote enormous waste of time and money.

Is it a complete waste?  No.  But a poor use of resources IMO.

Conza88:
He did get some hearings on the issue... Mr Woods going to Washington to testify.

That's like getting our joy from Ron Paul interviews on YT during the campaign.  It didn't add up to anything but our own thrills.

I'm past the "this liberty thing is really fun and exciting" point.  I'm interested in making meaningful contributions that have long lasting effects.

Sad reading some of the comments on RPF.  I wouldn't go there, but I since we've talked about it recently, I felt the need.  Same sort of stuff I saw after Ron got crushed in NH.

 

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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filc replied on Sat, Oct 31 2009 6:54 PM

liberty student:
Convincing people that they can control Washington through phone calls and petitions was misguided at best.

liberty student:
You can't reform the system with the system.
 

Thats true. I think that is perhaps the hardest thing to learn.

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filc:
Thats true. I think that is perhaps the hardest thing to learn

Well in a sense Liberty is right and I think in another he is too cynical. Are pieces like the Audit the Fed worthless? I would say no. I think it presented a roadblock [ that of course was overcome ] but a roadblock none the less. Pieces such as these at least show what libertarians aim for though it probably won't go through. It is a declaration to the citizenry saying 'We think this is wrong and this is why.' I think silent waiting or speaking of libertarianism at social events which perhaps is an effective system for the grassroots but I don't think libertarianism is really just dinner conversation. True we have seminars but the general populace are usually to inclined to their immediate area. I think the Audit the Fed piece was really thrown into the lime light, and this is not something that often happens. So I find it bittersweet. Perhaps more bitter then Ron Paul fans, but sweeter then the cynic who thinks this was an utter waste of time.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Another post that doesn't address my criticism.  It was a waste of time and resources.  And it was.  An enormous waste.

Laughing Man:
It is a declaration to the citizenry saying 'We think this is wrong and this is why.'

No, it is a declaration to the citizenry that we think the government is legitimate, and if we can just get the right people in, then we can have liberty.

Laughing Man:
I think silent waiting or speaking of libertarianism at social events which perhaps is an effective system for the grassroots but I don't think libertarianism is really just dinner conversation.

Some of us actually do things and don't advertise it.  No one is suggesting being silent.  Simply being radical and honest.

Laughing Man:
but sweeter then the cynic who thinks this was an utter waste of time.

The only good thing about it, is that it failed.  It will disillusion people who think politicians will listen to them.  That if you phone your congressman enough, he will vote your way against the most powerful special interest in the world.

The history of the FED vs. Congressional review is longer than the last year.  It goes back decades.  Tom DiLorenzo has written about it on LRC.  I don't think anyone in the austro-libertarian hierarchy expected this to go any further, and it didnt.  You'll notice, LvMI and LRC don't promote C4L causes.  There is a reason for that.  We're not reformists.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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liberty student:
Another post that doesn't address my criticism.  It was a waste of time and resources.  And it was.  An enormous waste.

Well why do you see it as a waste?

liberty student:
No, it is a declaration to the citizenry that we think the government is legitimate, and if we can just get the right people in, then we can have liberty.

Well I don't think the audit the fed bill was trying to strategically place anyone in the government. 

liberty student:
Some of us actually do things and don't advertise it.  No one is suggesting being silent.  Simply being radical and honest.

Well I think some people think its is an effective way. I'm on the fence about it. I don't see it as a waste of time but I wonder as to how effect they think it will actually be.

liberty student:
The only good thing about it, is that it failed.  It will disillusion people who think politicians will listen to them.  That if you phone your congressman enough, he will vote your way against the most powerful special interest in the world.

See what I mean, absolute cynic. It at least inspired people that something was being done however brief the case. There are some who cannot just sit around like good little soldiers waiting for the right moment for someone to say 'Ok now!' This was action. This was a step, a very small step, but a step. This was a beneficial step. In my heart of hearts I wish it would of worked out. I was skeptical but not cynical. 

liberty student:
I don't think anyone in the austro-libertarian hierarchy expected this to go any further, and it didnt.  You'll notice, LvMI and LRC don't promote C4L causes.  There is a reason for that.  We're not reformists.

This is an absolutely ridiculous statement and you should know this. What does Thomas Woods do? How often is Ron Paul's name invoked in the LvMi lectures calling him the only honorable politician. I'm not a Ron Paul fan anymore but I obviously see the absurdity in you claiming that Ron Paul goes unspoken. The LvMi sells all of Ron Paul's books and even put his new work in the 'End the Fed' collection. The LRC has podcasts of Ron Paul for god's sake, he even has a column. Granted this is not the C4L, obviously. However, you seem to be implicitly trying to alienate them from the LvMi for what I conceive to be as faulty reasons.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Sieben replied on Sat, Oct 31 2009 9:08 PM

I would rather see the fed dismantled through congress than not dismantled at all... One way to prove Ancap-ism is to dismantle the state and show how things get better with every progressive step. This is just one way though, it may have many problems.

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Snowflake:

I would rather see the fed dismantled through congress than not dismantled at all... One way to prove Ancap-ism is to dismantle the state and show how things get better with every progressive step. This is just one way though, it may have many problems.

I'd rather have anything dismantled then not dismantled at all. Is the government likely to do it? No. But would I say 'if you can't do it my way then I don't want it at all'? Of course not.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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And Jeffrey Tucker's article on Halloween free-markets is right on the front page of campaign for liberty.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Sieben replied on Sat, Oct 31 2009 9:41 PM

Just something to point out: The federal reserve/banking industry in the states is insanely complex, though it need not necessarily be dismantled from within. All that needs to happen is to legalize free currency; make it possible for people to pay and get paid in whatever they choose. In this way, everyone would stop trading in dollars and the system would collapse.

I wish ron paul would just push for this. You dont need to defeat elaborate arguments made by central bankers and keynesian economists. Just... free currency Big Smile

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Laughing Man:
Well why do you see it as a waste?

Already answered in detail.

Laughing Man:
Well I don't think the audit the fed bill was trying to strategically place anyone in the government. 

I never said it was trying to.

Laughing Man:
Well I think some people think its is an effective way.

Argumentum ad populum.

Laughing Man:
See what I mean, absolute cynic.

No.  I'm not cynical about liberty.  I am cynical about using monopoly violence to accomplish it.

Laughing Man:
This is an absolutely ridiculous statement and you should know this.

*Sigh*

Laughing Man:
What does Thomas Woods do?

I'll give you that, Woods is the exception to the rule.  But he's not Walter Block or Tom DiLorenzo or Bob Murphy.  He's certainly not Lew Rockwell.

Laughing Man:
How often is Ron Paul's name invoked in the LvMi lectures calling him the only honorable politician.

Irrelevant to my statement.

Laughing Man:
I'm not a Ron Paul fan anymore but I obviously see the absurdity in you claiming that Ron Paul goes unspoken. The LvMi sells all of Ron Paul's books and even put his new work in the 'End the Fed' collection

It would be absurd if I did it.  But I didn't.

Laughing Man:
Granted this is not the C4L, obviously. However, you seem to be implicitly trying to alienate them from the LvMi for what I conceive to be as faulty reasons.

The C4L is not Ron Paul.  It is John Tate.

I'm not trying to alienate them.  They are not Austrians or libertarians.  Generally, the C4L is a conservative grassroots organization with RP as its honourary chairman.

You might be happy with working towards second bests.  I'm not.  Empowering Congress is not a solution.  As shown, they are completely corrupt.  Even if the FED was audited, nothing would come from it.  The crimes of the state are no secret.  They torture and mass murder and there is no accountability.

The only solution worth pursuing, is educating people on the principles of freedom, not teaching them to lobby their tyrant.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Marko replied on Sat, Oct 31 2009 11:07 PM

liberty student:

I'll give you that, Woods is the exception to the rule.  But he's not Walter Block or Tom DiLorenzo or Bob Murphy.  He's certainly not Lew Rockwell.

What do you mean Tom Woods is not Bob Murphy?

_____________________



The push for 1207 was a success. What came out of it showed a lot of people that the USA is not a democracy. It forced the power elite to do one more thing to de-legitimize their hold on power in the eyes of their victims. It forced the state to unmask itself stil further. 

And it will have its day jet when its gutting raises an eyebrow in China and pushes the day of reckoning all that closer.

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Marko:
The push for 1207 was a success. What came out of it showed a lot of people that the USA is not a democracy.

And if it had succeeded, what would it have showed a lot of people?  That democracy works?

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Marko replied on Sat, Oct 31 2009 11:40 PM

liberty student:

And if it had succeeded, what would it have showed a lot of people?  That democracy works?

Pressumably it would have shown people the state of affairs at the fed in greater detail.

It could never have succeeded in there a real audit occuring. They can no more allow an audit than Bernie Madoff could have. They were always going to block it, it was just a question of how clumsy they are going to be in doing it. The more clumsy the more people take notice, the better for us. They were not clumsy at all, in the way they deflected the bullet was very shrewd. However it was so very sneaky and underhanded, so very unsportmanlike that those who did take notice won`t ever forget about it.

There were 307 names on the bill, and some no-name from the most ridicilously gerrymandered district east of Mississipi just cancelled it. Brilliant! Who ever thought there would be even 30 congressmen co-sponsoring?

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Marko:

liberty student:

And if it had succeeded, what would it have showed a lot of people?  That democracy works?

Pressumably it would have shown people the state of affairs at the fed in greater detail.

That's not an answer to my question.  That is equivocating.

If the faith in government is undermined, then I count the loss on the bill as a win for liberty.

You can't have it both ways, where if it fails, that is going for undermining the state, and if it passes, well everyone gets what they want.  The point is that getting what you want by using the power of the state is illegitimate.  Otherwise, all of those other people who lobby the government for bailouts, and regulation and military contracts are just using the same means, for their own personal gain.  Those people lobbying for single payer health care are using the same means.

The lesson of democracy, is that just because people can obtain something politically, doesn't legitimize illegitimate political means.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Marko replied on Sun, Nov 1 2009 12:23 AM

liberty student:

You can't have it both ways, where if it fails, that is going for undermining the state, and if it passes, well everyone gets what they want.  The point is that getting what you want by using the power of the state is illegitimate.  Otherwise, all of those other people who lobby the government for bailouts, and regulation and military contracts are just using the same means, for their own personal gain.  Those people lobbying for single payer health care are using the same means.

The lesson of democracy, is that just because people can obtain something politically, doesn't legitimize illegitimate political means.



That is silly. Is it illegitimate to petition your local mafia boss to lower the amount of protection money demanded from you? No, it is not. Therefore it is not illegitimate to petition your king to free you from serfdom. And therefore it is not illegitimate to petition the congress to abolish the federal reserve. 

Using political means is illegitimate when the people are targeted. When the state itself is targeted it is perfectly fine. Otherwise you might as well say working to end a war on the grounds of it being unconstitutional is illegitimate.

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Marko:
Is it illegitimate to petition your local mafia boss to lower the amount of protection money demanded from you?

Is it illegitimate to petition your local mafia boss to increase the amount of protection [sic]?

Marko:
Using political means is illegitimate when the people are targeted. When the state itself is targeted it is perfectly fine.

Same thing.  The distinction is meaningless.

Some people want the FED audited, some do not.  Whose will gets carried out?

Marko:
Otherwise you might as well say a newly elected president ending a war on the grounds of it being unconstitutional is illegitimate.

Consequentialist argument.

Look, I get it.  I was there in the Revolution.  I know, people might admit the state is not legitimate, and insist they can vote "defensively".  They can talk about how the the LP is a waste of time, and still vote the "lesser of two evils".  How it is ok to take money from the state, because you pay taxes in.  Nothing sunk my heart my heart more than seeing Bob Higgs on C-Span or Book TV say he was going to take social security because he was forced to pay into it.

I just don't agree.  I think that those compromises are why libertarianism has not advanced significantly in the political arena and never will.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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AJ replied on Sun, Nov 1 2009 1:02 AM

The Fed is the not the problem. The problem is monopoly. The monopoly is never going to vote itself away.

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Marko replied on Sun, Nov 1 2009 1:15 AM

liberty student:

Marko:
Is it illegitimate to petition your local mafia boss to lower the amount of protection money demanded from you?

Is it illegitimate to petition your local mafia boss to increase the amount of protection [sic]?

Are you the only one who is going to be affected by the increase?

Do show me where is the agression in petitioning your local mafia boss to lower your protection money?

liberty student:

Marko:
Using political means is illegitimate when the people are targeted. When the state itself is targeted it is perfectly fine.

Same thing.  The distinction is meaningless.

No it is not. Political means are wrong because they equal force. But it is not wrong to use force against the state and rise up in arms against it in the first place.

liberty student:

Some people want the FED audited, some do not.  Whose will gets carried out?

What does this have to do with me?

liberty student:


Marko:
Otherwise you might as well say a newly elected president ending a war on the grounds of it being unconstitutional is illegitimate.

Consequentialist argument.

Do be consistent. You were saying the congress abolishing the fed is illegitimate. Therefore a president ending a war is illegitimate.  Yes or no? Can the act of ending a war be illegitimate? Can the act of asking someone to do an act that is not illegitimate be illegitimate?

liberty student:


Marko:
Look, I get it.  I was there in the Revolution.  I know, people might admit the state is not legitimate, and insist they can vote "defensively".  They can talk about how the the LP is a waste of time, and still vote the "lesser of two evils".  How it is ok to take money from the state, because you pay taxes in.  Nothing sunk my heart my heart more than seeing Bob Higgs on C-Span or Book TV say he was going to take social security because he was forced to pay into it.


Has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

liberty student:

I just don't agree.  I think that those compromises are why libertarianism has not advanced significantly in the political arena and never will.

Where did I suggest anything that can be construed as a compromise?

Remember we are talking about 1207. We are not talking about the lesser of two evils. We are talking wether does it constitute an act of agression to send an e-mail to a congressman to petition him to co-sponsor 1207? We are not even talking about whether it is tactically sound to do so. We are talking about whether it is evil.

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Marko:
Do show me where is the agression in petitioning your local mafia boss to lower your protection money?

Not the same argument.

Marko:
But it is not wrong to use force against the state and rise up in arms against it in the first place.

You're not using force against the state.  You are using the state.

Marko:
What does this have to do with me?

You claim it is ok for you to defend your interests using the state.  How does this differ from the constituency who benefits from the FED?  If it is ok for you to lobby, then surely it is ok for them to lobby as well, correct?

Marko:
Do be consistent. You were saying the congress abolishing the fed is illegitimate. Therefore a president ending a war is illegitimate.  Yes or no?

Yes, a president ending a war is illegitimate.  Because a president starting a war in the first place is illegitimate.  The president as an office is illegitimate.  You're making the typical minarchist argument.  The state is ok if it is doing what you want.   It is a consequentialist argument.

Marko:
Where did I suggest anything that can be construed as a compromise?

Your entire argument is a compromise.  Instead of delegitimizing the mafia, you negotiate for better rates.

Marko:
We are talking about whether it is evil.

I don't think it is legitimate.  I think it is misguided, and I think it is counter-productive.  I don't want to call it evil, because that would mean I am calling Ron Paul evil.  Suffice it to say, I don't agree with his strategy.  I also don't agree with libertarians who vote.  YMMV.

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Kakugo replied on Sun, Nov 1 2009 2:04 AM

Well, what did you expect? Now that the US economy is in "full jobless recovery" there's no time with sad and gloom: go out and spend, spend, spend! I would like to know how many of the 308 co-sponsors (apart from Dr Paul himself) really knew what they were doing and how many signed the bill just because they believed it to be a good political move. But now that the US GDP is steaming ahead once again who wants to hold this hot potato? Let Dr Paul be the usual "crackpot" and celebrate democracy by going out and spending some more money the FED just printed!

Together we go unsung... together we go down with our people
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DD5 replied on Sun, Nov 1 2009 11:41 AM

liberty student:

How it is ok to take money from the state, because you pay taxes in.  Nothing sunk my heart my heart more than seeing Bob Higgs on C-Span or Book TV say he was going to take social security because he was forced to pay into it.

I just don't agree.  I think that those compromises are why libertarianism has not advanced significantly in the political arena and never will.

 

It should be perfectly OK to try to get some of your looted money back from the State while trying to dismantle it.  In fact, the position of not taking anything back is absurd.  There is no way I'm going to let the Statists loot me and then donate it right back into the system. 

You have to use the public roads and street even if you think they are illegitimate. 

You may have to send you children to public school if you can't afford private.

You have to utilize State doctors and Hospitals if this is your only option.

 

 

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liberty student:
I never said it was trying to.

You specifically stated that:

liberty student:
No, it is a declaration to the citizenry that we think the government is legitimate, and if we can just get the right people in, then we can have liberty.

The Fed bill was not about getting the 'right people in'

liberty student:
Argumentum ad populum

I believe it was effective for the reasons I gave concerning inspiring individual to look at the Fed. There may be others who agree with me and there are certainly some who don't.

liberty student:
The C4L is not Ron Paul.  It is John Tate.

Right, Ron Paul is not the center of attention at C4L...it's John Tate.

liberty student:
I'm not trying to alienate them.  They are not Austrians or libertarians.  Generally, the C4L is a conservative grassroots organization with RP as its honourary chairman.

Have you seen the reading materials in the Education section? They have Rothbard, DiLorenzo, Woods, Murphy, Mises, De Soto, Hoppe, Salerno, Higgs, Rockwell. They have all their works in there and a whole reading section on Austrian economics.

liberty student:
You might be happy with working towards second bests.  I'm not.
'

And you might be happy sitting on the sidelines until your 'big moment' comes.  This hurry up and wait mentality doesn't work. Government is getting to the point where second best is better then last place.

liberty student:
Empowering Congress is not a solution.  As shown, they are completely corrupt.

Empowering Congress to do what? More power to print more money? They don't already have that ability? At least you have 534 idiots trying to manage something that is already too efficient. Why not introduce the idiots into the equation to make the Fed more haphazard?

liberty student:
Even if the FED was audited, nothing would come from it. 

People would grow to realize how destructive the Fed is. That is how they are being ripped off. That is how the war machine is finance. It is the lynchpin of the welfare-warfare state.

liberty student:
The crimes of the state are no secret.

Right because the dealings of the Fed were so well known before Ron Paul started talking about them. We all knew it, we were just happy to have fiat currency.

liberty student:
They torture and mass murder and there is no accountability.

Right, we have no anti-war movement, no outrage over torture. Your throwing yourself into a corner. First you say 'Don't work within government, its a waste of time, grassroots, lets get the people to do it' then you are implying that no one does anything to make the government accountable.

liberty student:
The only solution worth pursuing, is educating people on the principles of freedom, not teaching them to lobby their tyrant.

And the Audit the Fed bill did that. It was on the news, I'm sure it sparked some curiosity. Thomas Wood's book Meltdown, NYT bestseller for several weeks, all about the Fed. Ron Paul's End the Fed, NYT bestseller, all about the Fed. The interest in the Fed is on the raise, and this bill was an attempt to get it more coverage and the thin hope that it might be passed and have an organization that has never been audit finally be audited.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Wow this dialogue is quite interesting.  There seems to be an overplaying of dialectics between the Laughing Man and Liberty Student.  I think they're both right.  Liberty Student is right in that it's incredibly hard to force the state to make real change.  Laughing Man is also right that Democracy can do something and that it can have an impact on how we see things and what things we do or don't do.  We shouldn't give up.  If we don't vote and don't do anything to the elections or infiltrate the parties or whatever there's no way we'll get our reforms across.  That's how I see it.  We need real change.  We can't just sit here and do nothing. 

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Spideynw replied on Thu, Nov 5 2009 10:49 PM

SilentXtarian:

Wow this dialogue is quite interesting.  There seems to be an overplaying of dialectics between the Laughing Man and Liberty Student.  I think they're both right.  Liberty Student is right in that it's incredibly hard to force the state to make real change.  Laughing Man is also right that Democracy can do something and that it can have an impact on how we see things and what things we do or don't do.  We shouldn't give up.  If we don't vote and don't do anything to the elections or infiltrate the parties or whatever there's no way we'll get our reforms across.  That's how I see it.  We need real change.  We can't just sit here and do nothing. 

How successful was Gandhi?  Did he use the system?

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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Spideynw replied on Thu, Nov 5 2009 10:52 PM

Conza88:
The situation was a win win proposition from the start. No matter what they did, the FED was screwed. This shows the system can in no way be reformed.

Or it just shows that people need to try harder...

Conza88:
Actions like this will further push "limited government" folk and others into favoring the complete abolition of the state. Or at least completely adopt the argument from morality.

Or that they just need to somehow try harder...

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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Spideynw replied on Thu, Nov 5 2009 11:00 PM

liberty student:

Completely expected.  What an enormous waste of time and money pushing this bill.

Which is why I did not waste any time or money pushing it (and I assume you did not either).  I am very glad for all the people that Ron Paul brought into the movement during his presidential campaign.  But after that, all I ever really hear him talk about is his stupid bill.  I hear about it on his news interviews.  I heard about it on freedom watch all the time.  And now his son Rand Paul is getting into politics, and he does not seem that liberty loving to me.

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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Spideynw replied on Thu, Nov 5 2009 11:09 PM

liberty student:
You'll notice, LvMI and LRC don't promote C4L causes.  There is a reason for that.  We're not reformists.

And boy am I glad they don't.  C4L seems like such a weak organization, IMO.  I am part of the group, and all they ever seem to do is send me emails telling me to call the politicians and beg them to be nice.  At least LvMI and LRC put out thought provoking articles.  LRC even puts out some that are just more light hearted and entertaining too.

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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Laughing Man:
And you might be happy sitting on the sidelines until your 'big moment' comes.

How do you know this is what I am doing?

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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