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Rand Paul, Immigration and National Security

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Actually, it isn't even really about the welfare state. The cost that illegal immigrants place on state welfare systems is pretty negligible, so in all reality they really don't soak up that much money from the tax payer - in some areas they soak up a little, but on the aggregate, not much at all really. Combine that with the clear economic benefits of illegal immigrants and I'm pretty certain that most arguments against immigration - illegal or legal - are xenophobic. That's it.

existence is elsewhere

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I think also forgotten is the fundamental problem of democracy.  I tend to agree with those who suggest that the Democrat Party's motives for pushing amnesty and neglecting the border strongly revolve on the expectation that these immigrants, being poorer on average than other US voters, will systematically be more likely to vote for a more generous social welfare state.  This fosters a great deal of resentment from Americans who conclude that the immigrants will use the government to steal their money to redistribute it.

The solution here is not to further empower the state to crack down on immigrants, it is to repeal the tyrannical system that allows groups to rob other groups simply because the former can bring more heads to the ballot box.  Most of the immigrants just want to exchange their labor for a few dollars.  It's the state that is using them to help tighten its grip on all of us.

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Valkrie replied on Tue, Jun 8 2010 7:40 AM

Benjamin, I don't want to start a debate about 9-11 truth when it doesn't impact whether or not there are other people out to hurt us. I think the insurgency in Iraq and other terrorist bombings in Europe are evidence enough of this.

I also agree about the drugs being legalized to cut down on black market violence, and maybe Britain has some good ways of handling this, but the long term goal for society should be to not have any regular users.

JakobM, do you think people should smoke cocaine?

Wilmot of Rochester, the issue isn't economic. In the opening post, I explained that economists win on this point. What we're trying to discuss is national security.

Mises Pieces, you bring up some good points about how the majority of immigrants will probably behave. So why not issue lots of temporary work visas instead of granting citizenship?

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"Mises Pieces, you bring up some good points about how the majority of immigrants will probably behave. So why not issue lots of temporary work visas instead of granting citizenship?"

I certainly don't want them granted US citizenship.  But really, the point I and others are trying to make is that we're all citizens of the world (as hokey as that might sound), and national borders are artificial constructs that prevent people everyday from maximizing their productive contribution to society.

It's the existance of the state system itself that creates insoluble conflicts between people who should be working together.  That's why these problems become so intractable, because the only true solution (total privatization, or "anarchy") is too radical for most to consider.

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Mises Pieces:
I think also forgotten is the fundamental problem of democracy.  I tend to agree with those who suggest that the Democrat Party's motives for pushing amnesty and neglecting the border strongly revolve on the expectation that these immigrants, being poorer on average than other US voters, will systematically be more likely to vote for a more generous social welfare state.  This fosters a great deal of resentment from Americans who conclude that the immigrants will use the government to steal their money to redistribute it.
More than half of Hispanics in Texas consider themselves conservatives. Don't tell me you're taking this line that Republican = Conservative and Democrat = Liberal. You've never heard of a Conservative Democrat - which is probably a lot closer to libertarian than either Dem or Republican - ? White conservatives are really just inventing reasons to hate Hispanics now.

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Valkrie:
Wilmot of Rochester, the issue isn't economic. In the opening post, I explained that economists win on this point. What we're trying to discuss is national security.
I'm much less concerned about the national security threats that illegal immigrants pose - which is basically zero.

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"More than half of Hispanics in Texas consider themselves conservatives. Don't tell me you're taking this line that Republican = Conservative and Democrat = Liberal. You've never heard of a Conservative Democrat - which is probably a lot closer to libertarian than either Dem or Republican - ? White conservatives are really just inventing reasons to hate Hispanics now."

So you don't think that the motive behind the Democrats' push for amnesty is to expand the welfare state and attract more voters to consolidate their power?  I'd say it's pretty naive to deny that.

And don't worry, I'm sure I hate Republicans just as much as you do.  They would do the same thing if they were in the same position, but since they're currently playing the role of the corporate welfare party not the social welfare party, they have less to gain from amnesty.

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