Current Events

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

Andrew Cain — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 16:37:07 GMT

I here you get life in Prison for having the Angel series.

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

Solarist — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 16:19:33 GMT

"Buffy the Vampire Slayer DVDs"

O man! Is this the ultimate violation of property rights in the history of the state? I mean, I know taxes are theft but now they are just gonna take our Buffy DVD's? Preposterous!!!

When I get home I'm hiding my Firefly DVD box set in the vent... don't tread on me!

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

Andrew Cain — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:49:48 GMT

Amelia Vreeland:
Yeah. Well, I had mentioned to them, I said...I don't what you mean by anarchist collective, please explain. If you are against capitalism, I think we should discuss this and see where our differences occur. Have you ever heard of the Mises Institute? And then sent me the above reply. They didn't address the capitalism thing at all, which could mean they don't want to argue with me, could mean they really don't care either way.

These guys/gals are probably Bakuninites or maybe Kroptkinites [?] hence the strong distaste for Marxism. Its actually kind of funny, if you read Marx's work 'After the Revolution' he calls Bakunin a 'school boy'. A rather stinging 19th century insult. Then again maybe they are Chomskites, that is certainly all the rage with dysfunctional youth, I have yet to discover the reasoning behind it though. Maybe because of his critique on the Iraq conflict.

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

Amelia Vreeland — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:36:53 GMT

Haha. This was friggin' hilarious! Thank you.

Yeah. Well, I had mentioned to them, I said...I don't what you mean by anarchist collective, please explain. If you are against capitalism, I think we should discuss this and see where our differences occur. Have you ever heard of the Mises Institute? And then sent me the above reply. They didn't address the capitalism thing at all, which could mean they don't want to argue with me, could mean they really don't care either way.

Yeah. A lot of people got woken up through Ron Paul. I just have to keep trying to get people to understand, anyway, even if nobody else wants to. I mean, I called the state and asked them to steal some of your money and give it to me, since you wouldn't voluntaryily help me help these people see the way, but then they said they weren't interested. I told them that was irrelevant because I needed it, and they had no choice but to agree. So, expect an extra $50 taken out of your income tax this week.

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

Andrew Cain — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:26:35 GMT

Conza88:
I tried a while back. Over at revleft. A fair few of us here did. I made a few threads, about the Philosophy of Self Ownership and Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature, looking for responses. The responses were dire, so I didn't bother at all and instead had some fun in their forum chat. Pretty fun, "hey comrade" lol.. then you ask them about the minimum wage, would you raise it to $50 an hour? No? Why not?

That was so much fun. Like I said I...love...debating...Marxists. Actual Marxists, not political dark matter socialists who aren't Marxists and are Socialists simply because they think something is wrong.

The Facade of Class Struggle

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

Andrew Cain — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:20:33 GMT

Amelia Vreeland:
"Of course your support counts for something, it means a lot to us going through this. I would love to explain an anarchist collective, it is simply a group of people working and/or living together where decisions are made by consensus and there are no fixed roles or leaders. It is based on mutual aid, voluntary association and respect. There is more and the fact we are anarchists mean we share some basic political outlooks but unlike communists we do have a dogma, single text or even agree on all that much. There is the freedom of the individual in a supportive community.

I don't see anything really controversial about this email. They are at least for voluntary association. Now I would hope they take that to its logical conclusion of free trade and buying / selling which implies a system of private property. What I can't agree with is the destruction of property and I have some hesitation over protesting. They might be wrong on economics but at least these people propound voluntary cooperation.

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

Conza88 — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:11:45 GMT

Amelia Vreeland:
I don't know how you are supposed to help them.

Enter them into a entrepreneurship based reality tv program, where marxists, anarchists, leninists and trotskyites compete to start up & successfully run a small business for more than just a few days in order to win free goods for their proletariat comrades.

There is also the possibility of a sequel - which, should a miracle occur and one of the contestants actually succeed, the show will focus on the redistribution of wealth. Will the participant give up their worldly goods they worked hard for, to total strangers? Or will they heaven forbid, be selfish?

In all seriousness though, how does someone get rid of envy?

Amelia Vreeland:
I sent my sympathies and they were appreciative because they are humans and like to know that there are people that care when bad things happen.

Did they know you were an anarcho-capitalist? Do you think that knowledge would change the way they reacted to your sympathies?

Amelia Vreeland:
Were you all inherently born with a knowledge of the economic world, understanding suddenly or immediately that the free-market is the best way to organize such a vast number of people and resources? You woke up at age 20 and went, duh!? No. You either looked for the information or somebody presented it to you.

I was on the route to syndicalism through Chomsky. But then Ron Paul came alone. My first exposure to capitalism really, yeww. That was all it took. I'd never been shown an alternative. He oozes integrity, honesty and principles. Ask these guys what they think of Ron Paul.

Amelia Vreeland:
So, maybe the way you could help them is by not attacking their beliefs because they are self-negating, but instead explain to them how and why they do not make sense, and to let them know there is a better way, a better ideal of what is wrong with what is currently going on and that this ideal, unlike their own, wouldn't out of necessity lead right back to the current system or something similar.

I tried a while back. Over at revleft. A fair few of us here did. I made a few threads, about the Philosophy of Self Ownership and Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature, looking for responses. The responses were dire, so I didn't bother at all and instead had some fun in their forum chat. Pretty fun, "hey comrade" lol.. then you ask them about the minimum wage, would you raise it to $50 an hour? No? Why not?

Haha:

http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/8834/227541.aspx

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

Amelia Vreeland — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:12:45 GMT

I don't know how you are supposed to help them. I sent my sympathies and they were appreciative because they are humans and like to know that there are people that care when bad things happen.

I understand why they think that the state is bad, if they are indeed anarcho-socialist, and honestly, I didn't look into it very much. I am trying to start a dialogue with them to see if that is the case and see if maybe we can have a rational discussion about it because it is important to see the other side of things so that you can see where the people went wrong, logically. Were you all inherently born with a knowledge of the economic world, understanding suddenly or immediately that the free-market is the best way to organize such a vast number of people and resources? You woke up at age 20 and went, duh!? No. You either looked for the information or somebody presented it to you.

So, maybe the way you could help them is by not attacking their beliefs because they are self-negating, but instead explain to them how and why they do not make sense, and to let them know there is a better way, a better ideal of what is wrong with what is currently going on and that this ideal, unlike their own, wouldn't out of necessity lead right back to the current system or something similar.

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

DanielMuff — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:37:43 GMT

Amelia Vreeland:

Okay. But these people want it to be voluntary, as everything would have to be an anarchist society, otherwise they would obliterate themselves. If they don't understand this, they would have to.

Under anarcho-commie-ism and anarcho-socialism, I would be able to voluntarily sell you my factory, because their would be no "my factory".

Amelia Vreeland:
I am not saying they deserve your help. I didn't realize this would be so controversial. It crossed my mind that people would get angry about the whole anarchist collective thing, but I thought they would still want to, even if not help, know that this was something that was going on. If they knew already, they could ignore it. I wanted to let people know their were people who think the state is their enemy, and they were asking of help from those who would wish. I didn't realize I would so much have to defend voluntary fraternity. I am willing to, but was surprised.

We're not trying to be hostile (at least I'm not) towards you. But the "anarchists" at those protest are usually anarcho-commies or anarcho-socialist. So we anarcho-capitalist would agree with them that we should do away with the state, but the differ on what we should replace the current system with. And they don't hate the state because the state violates private property. To the contrary, they are anti-state because they believe the states protects private property of the capitalist.

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

Conza88 — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:19:46 GMT

The reason these anarchists hate the state is because they hate capitalism. They believe the state protects private property... lmao!

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

filc — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:11:22 GMT

How exactly are we suppose to help them anyhow?

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

filc — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:09:12 GMT

Daniel:
That doesn't mean they favor private property rights. To anarcho-commie or anarcho-socialist, "private property" is a violation of rights.

Arn't "Anarcho-socialists" and "Anarcho-commie" antonyms?

These groups get some attention now because they claim to have a voluntary association and prey on confused college kids who see something is wrong but make no effort to learn on their own what exactly that wrong is. Notice how membership of these groups fluctuate as they are inherently unsustainable. They have no basic economic understanding and that is their downfall. True Anarchist Socialism is inherently impossible, just as night cannot be day.

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

sicsempertyrannis — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:01:57 GMT

vreelanda:

I am not saying they deserve your help. I didn't realize this would be so controversial. It crossed my mind that people would get angry about the whole anarchist collective thing, but I thought they would still want to, even if not help, know that this was something that was going on. If they knew already, they could ignore it.

I am a little confused about what the raid was really over. Protesting the G20 isnt something that would usually bring out the Joint Terrorism Task Force...

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

Amelia Vreeland — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 01:57:01 GMT

Okay. But these people want it to be voluntary, as everything would have to be an anarchist society, otherwise they would obliterate themselves. If they don't understand this, they would have to.

I am not saying they deserve your help. I didn't realize this would be so controversial. It crossed my mind that people would get angry about the whole anarchist collective thing, but I thought they would still want to, even if not help, know that this was something that was going on. If they knew already, they could ignore it. I wanted to let people know their were people who think the state is their enemy, and they were asking of help from those who would wish. I didn't realize I would so much have to defend voluntary fraternity. I am willing to, but was surprised.

Re: G20 Protests and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

DanielMuff — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 01:35:52 GMT

vreelanda:

They are saying that there idea is based on non-aggression and private property rights. They are denoting this by saying, we do not agree with each other, we produce and share because we want to, there is no hierarchy (which I do not think is efficient), and it is based on voluntary cooperation.

...

That doesn't mean they favor private property rights. To anarcho-commie or anarcho-socialist, "private property" is a violation of rights.