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Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

JackCuyler — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 01:10:35 GMT

All I'm saying is, that "Do Not Murder" should apply as much to the State as it does to individuals. I'm not against life incarceration via jury trial. I know that my interpretation is not common, but I thought I'd share it.

How do you reconcile your interpretation with God's command to put murderers to death? (Exodus 21:12-14; Leviticus 24:17,21)

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Wheylous — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 22:36:28 GMT

we lost something when we got 24/7 commerce, some of the sparkle in society dissapeared when families could not be guaranteed Sunday for chilling the heck out, and going out to enjoy nature and the company of others.

So we have to use force to make this sparkly dream come true again? This is the most non-libertarian statement ever. I realize that government is currently used to force your societal views on others, but it shouldn't be.

Are the no Christians on this forum?

I'm a Christian, but I don't believe in forcing religious laws on others.

The commandment against coveting the possessions of others would outlaw Socialism, so don't knock it.

We should support any argument that outlaws socialism? So something along the lines of "the Soviets are gay, and God hates gays, so don't knock God hating gays, because the hate of gays outlaws socialism"?

Just because something results in something good it doesn't mean we should enforce it. Oh, I don't know, sort of like a lot of government services! It's like saying "government makes roads, so don't knock government!" Well, no, there are a lot of other ways to make roads without using violence.

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Phil Ridley — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:06:40 GMT

All I'm saying is, that "Do Not Murder" should apply as much to the State as it does to individuals. I'm not against life incarceration via jury trial. I know that my interpretation is not common, but I thought I'd share it.

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

John Ess — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 20:59:10 GMT

Well, what can it mean that Christianity is opposed to the death penalty?

The Bible certainly is not against it, as I said above.

The majority of Christians are not against it, which is why it is still used.

Through most of Christian history, it was used. Like in other places. Returning to said 'morals' would not be returning to a time without a death penalty. Whatever else we may be returning to.

Those are the only things I can use to define Christianity. What the Bible says, what Christians seem to think, and what Christian history bared out.

The founding fathers did not oppose it. And in fact supported it and slavery. Is there a quote from a 'founding father' opposed to the death penalty all together? Their opposition to cruel punishment perhaps belies an intent to kill without spectacle or debasing the society, but this caveat would seem to make death penalty more respectable. Not to abolish it.

It could be in an ideal form of Christianity there is no death penalty. Clarence Darrow wrote a book against it. But I'm not sure that requires Christianity. Since it is perfectly likely that non-Christians would oppose it. It seems that the most people who are against the death penalty are secular liberals. Though, a portion of Catholics are perhaps also opposed to it. Not necessarily is Christianity opposed to it.

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

MrSchnapps — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 20:35:22 GMT

There are; I just don't care to wade through all the BS with people who either don't know or don't care to know.

Why I'm not even going to bother is because at least three quarters of the information on this thread is posted by people so unacquainted with the topic that they wouldn't even comprehend true from false if they were corrected.

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Phil Ridley — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 20:09:23 GMT

Are the no Christians on this forum?

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Clayton — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 20:04:19 GMT

"True or not, it is irrelevant to the question of social order."

Illogical. If it is true then it is relevant to social order, if it isn't true, then yes, it is irrelevant.

Who determines what God has said? Perhaps God has said "Thou shalt not murder" but then Anton LeVay has other ideas on what God has said (and who God is). Yet others hold that there is not one but a multitude of gods and other spiritual beings. Yet others hold that there are no deities but there are ghosts of the deceased, and so on. Stil other dogmatically assert that there are, in fact, no spiritual beings of any sort. One or more of these groups might be right. But absent any rational method for determining who is, in fact, right all such questions of theology are irrelevant to questions of social order. Maybe questions of religious order or family order can be settled with theological ideas but you cannot settle questions of social order qua social order with theological ideas because people simply disagree and there is no method to determine who is right or wrong.

Clayton -

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Eric080 — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:19:20 GMT

There were plenty of Christians in that group, but a significant number of deists as well. Not that it matters to me.

I hope you realize that most of us don't care for the notion of a Republic (i.e., we're mostly anarchists ).

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Phil Ridley — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:04:17 GMT

Oh, regarding "do not covet anothers property". That Commandment is double sided. It allows for property rights, which is the foundation of Libertarianism. Once you have purchased something it is your property, right? And if God provides you a right to your property, then the State cannot take it away. This is why Christians should be completely opposed to ALL FORMS of Socialism, without exception.

The Founding Fathers were Christians and they stated, that only a moral society could retain a Republic. We must re-discover that moral compass to re-discover the Republic and our Liberties.

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

RothbardsDisciple — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 06:41:05 GMT

I have ONE commandment from Murray Newton Rothbard: the Non-Aggression Axiom.

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Eric080 — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 06:38:28 GMT

Sure days off are pleasant, but why does it qualify as a Commandment? I'd think of a Commandment as something which "one must not do" (lest there be some form of punishment). Also, I don't care what the deified "Founders" thought about anything just because they claimed to found a nation that I had nothing to do with.

Plus your first statement about the first three being central to their philosophy, many of the Founders were deists and didn't take the Old Testament at face value. That, and you're harping on a dichotomy that an irreligious Natural Law libertarian doesn't even have to consider. The State or God wouldn't be necessary conditions for granting "rights." A right doesn't have to come from either God or the State in this person's worldview.

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Phil Ridley — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 06:24:34 GMT

I'm more relaxed about the Sabbath, but as recent as about ten years ago, shops closed in England on Sundays, as still occurs in Spain, France, Italy, etc. and I tell you what, we lost something when we got 24/7 commerce, some of the sparkle in society dissapeared when families could not be guaranteed Sunday for chilling the heck out, and going out to enjoy nature and the company of others.

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Phil Ridley — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 06:20:15 GMT

The first commandments are central to your Founders believing that rights are derived from God, not the State.

The commandment against coveting the possessions of others would outlaw Socialism, so don't knock it.

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Eric080 — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 05:45:23 GMT

What separates the 10 Commandments from any other moral order derived from various global mythologies? Just about every society on Earth has instructions against murder, theft, and fraud. If they didn't, it would be difficult to function as a society. "Thou shalt not steal" is a maxim in many other concepts of morality and a non-theist libertarian would appeal to a Natural Law, of which God is not a necessary condition and would operate in opposition to the State just the same.

It wouldn't necessarily be the best thing to abide by the 10 Commandments because there are more commandments than the commonly cited ones. Remember the Sabbath (not relevant to the functioning of society), honor your father and mother (under what condition, if any, is this honor to be revoked?), do not covet (capitalism operates on the principle of wanting something somebody else has, as long as the means they take to acquire it is just, although I do recognize that there is an alternate conception of what this commandments means), and the first three are strictly religious principles that has nothing to do with civic law.

Re: Troy Davis murdered by State of Georgia; The death sentence is not Libertarian or Christian.

Porco Rosso — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 02:51:09 GMT

b) God COMMANDS us in the ten commandments you shall not murder.

True or not, it is irrelevant to the question of social order."

Illogical. If it is true then it is relevant to social order, if it isn't true, then yes, it is irrelevant.