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Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Physiocrat — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:47:52 GMT

This has become a bitching thread despite some informative comments from Clayton and Malachi. I'm going to lock it. Anyone can start a new Szasz thread but keep it respectful and don't mud sling.

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Merlin — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:12:25 GMT

U preftë në paqe.

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Autolykos — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:06:11 GMT

Aristophanes:
No, I liken it to a kid on a forum who is mad at another kid for SAYING SOMETHING derogatory and who wants an authority figure to stop them. You are a pussy. It is as simple as that.

Calling other users names like "moron" and "pussy" is against the rules of this forum, is it not? Are you saying you don't like or respect the rules of this forum? Or what is it that you're saying here?

I'd also love to know what you would've done if you'd been in my shoes.

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Clayton — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:58:57 GMT

@Prime: I should have been clearer - my second paragraph is "assuming you are competent to speak for yourself at law, that is, make your own medical decisions." I'm not really making any specific argument about medical science beyond the most rudimentary level. A competent individual is fit to judge for himself if he is not diseased, assuming there is nothing else measurably wrong with his body.

If you're not competent (I don't think schizos or advanced Alzheimer's patients are competent), then another person will have to be given medical decision-making authority over you.

In my view, the root issue is conflating the competency/incompetency issue with health/disease.

Clayton -

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Aristophanes — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:51:11 GMT

What does "telling on each other" have to do with anarchism, exactly? This forum is private property, is it not? By your reasoning, it would be anti-freedom to "tell on" a restaurant cook who's pissing in the soup.

No, I liken it to a kid on a forum who is mad at another kid for SAYING SOMETHING derogatory and who wants an authority figure to stop them. You are a pussy. It is as simple as that.

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Prime — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:35:39 GMT

Clayton, have you considered the possibility that there may be diseases that are in fact measurable, such as chemical imbalances of the brain, but there just isn't any measuring stick, so to speak. For instance, increased dopamine levels in schizophrenic patients, or Alzheimers that can only be definatively diagnosed after autopsy? And what if the disease itself prevents the person from feeling "not at ease," even though they clearly are (such as the schizo who mutilates his own body). What are your thoughts?

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Autolykos — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:30:28 GMT

John James:
ooooOOOOOooooo. Someone ironically runs to mommy mods. What else is new.

This coming from someone who was recently banned from the forum for three days because of his behavior...

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Autolykos — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:29:45 GMT

Aristophanes:
I only read a few posts of this thread. You are all idiots, in my opinion. (Telling on each other like true freedom loving anarchists...)

What does "telling on each other" have to do with anarchism, exactly? This forum is private property, is it not? By your reasoning, it would be anti-freedom to "tell on" a restaurant cook who's pissing in the soup.

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Clayton — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:12:48 GMT

+1 Malachi

Psychiatry blurs the distinction between two entirely separate issues. The first is competency, in a legal sense. Is someone competent to speak for themselves at law? If yes, then they are competent to dispose of their own medical treatments, including treatments for disturbed emotional states, etc. If not, then some single individual must be empowered to speak on behalf of the incompetent individual. The law industry should develop accepted criteria for determining competency. Whether this has anything to do with psychiatric evaluations is an open question, a priori.

The second issue is disease qua disease. The meaning of the word "disease" should be a big hint... not at ease. If there is nothing measurably wrong with your body and you are at ease, then you don't have any disease, mental or otherwise. You cannot be "declared" to have a disease like a court might declare someone to be incompetent after evaluation. Whether you have a disease or not is not a subjective question or even an expert question. Either there is something measurably wrong with you, or you feel that you are not at ease (even if the cause of the disease cannot be determined and/or measured). Otherwise, you are not diseased and for a psychiatrist to declare you to be diseased is, as Szasz correctly and insightfully notes, nothing more than social stigmatism dressed up in the garb of medicalese.

Clayton -

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Malachi — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 01:33:16 GMT

No, he's right. Most people are normal, and some people are just fucked up and it is the job of science to explain just what is wrong with those people so we can feel justified when we treat them differently than normal people. Anyone who challenges this paradigm is an idiot, and if he makes a decent case he is a quack.

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Aristophanes — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 22:25:00 GMT

I only read a few posts of this thread. You are all idiots, in my opinion. (Telling on each other like true freedom loving anarchists...)

You obviously have a personal vendetta against the recently deceased Dr. (I now remember your "emphatic" posts on this topic before).

Just take your medication and ... I don't know maybe frequent a different forum?

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Vladimir Ulyanov — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 22:19:50 GMT

And ''are you're dumb'' is alright. Why even make such a comment? You're adding nothing to this argument.

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Aristophanes — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 22:11:48 GMT

I had to give up trying to make my case against you because its like arguing with someone who brain dead.

Is it ironic that you would said, "because its like" and "someone who brain dead." while trying to insult someone for being brain dead? I think it is.

Your Angrish skills fail you, my friend. Textual arguing requires correct syntax. Sorry to make you look like a fool.

Was that ad hominem?

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

John James — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 22:10:33 GMT

Autolykos:
Just an FYI, ~~Vichy Army~~ ~~Ricky James Moore III~~ ~~whoever-else-you've-been~~ myhumangetsme - I've reported all your posts where you've been insulting to Vladimir Ulyanov, and I will continue to do so.

ooooOOOOOooooo. Someone ironically runs to mommy mods. What else is new.

myhumangetsme:
Just as an FYI Autolykos, I'm not any of those people. And I reported your post as abuse as well, since you seem to think you're the sole arbiter of who's right and wrong here.

Re: RIP Thomas Szasz

Vladimir Ulyanov — Tue, 11 Sep 2012 19:52:37 GMT

1) I don't know, but he isn't putting words into Szasz's mouth as far as I know.

2) I think he was referring to the progress in psychiatry which has caused most psychiatrists to change their at least some of their views. But I agree it is irrelevant.

3) Well I agree with you on this and I am against forced psychiatric treatment. Dr. Robert Sapolski touches on this somewhere in this lecture but I can't remember where. But it well worth watching, it very interesting.

(Please visit the site to view this media)

4) Szasz alligned himself with the Church of Scientology even though they had conflicting views on certain things. Wiseman is asking Szasz to explain himself.