Current Events

Re: Why aren't more atheists on our side?

SkepticalMetal — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 17:39:07 GMT

@ Neodoxy

Exactly. Atheists go from worshipping a god to worshipping the state. Personally I have no problem with religion as long as people don't try to impose it on me. And mind you, there is a history of that happening. Look at how many wars have been fought over religion. This is no excuse to promote state atheism however, being that just because it is there doesn't mean we have to target it. When the old religion argument comes up, I compare it to the gun argument. It isn't the guns that are committing the crime, it's the individuals behind them. With religion, it isn't the religion that's doing this, it's the people following it.

Re: Why aren't more atheists on our side?

shackleford — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 17:21:28 GMT

There's no such thing as an atheist. It's just the definition of who god is that changes. To me, atheism implies secular humanism. Humanity (or simply self) determines what is right or wrong, its own values, its own standards, etc. Naturally, this would include the state and political consensus among citizens. This is a logical conclusion of "atheism" and why they are mostly statists. Libertarianism is more congruous with Biblical Christianity. Scripture stresses individual accountability to God, not collective, government, or anything of the sort. Unfortunately, mainstream Christianity and evangelicals do not understand this. Their attempts to use government to legislate morality is just as wrong as the left's attempt.

Re: Why aren't more atheists on our side?

Neodoxy — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 02:58:28 GMT

Well of course I feel that they should extend skepticism to the state, but I find the talk of open-mindedness among most emphatic atheists, the ones who are actually proud of their atheism and find fighting religion as one of their main priorities. The entire debate is unimportant and isn't going anywhere fast. It isn't important specifically because an atheist world is not a better world because atheist people are not necessarily any smarter, or any better at applying whatever degree of intelligence they do have than religious people.

Anyway, historically atheists have always drifted to the left. Many of the most vocal early atheists were socialists or socialistic anarchists. Marx and his followers were the ones who proclaimed religion as the opiate of the proletariat, one of the most evil and pernicious lies which humanity ever faced. This continues, the fact is that if you're an atheist it's kind of expected that you're a liberal. The entire right is associated with religion, and so libertarianism is by default.

Re: Why aren't more atheists on our side?

Tex2002ans — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 02:35:50 GMT

TronCat:
However, ever since getting into libertarianism, I have completely lost my interest in the religious debates. I just don't feel it is as important, and looking back on a lot of that stuff that occupied my attention, I have to laugh.

Exact same thing that happened to me. Now that I have become an anarcho-capitalist, a lot of these problems I just see is problems caused by the monopoly of the state itself. Although I really reached this from Ron Paul's arguments about the "Third Way".

The Republicans generally want to use the state to ban gay marriage, the Democrats generally want to use the state to allow gay people to "marry"........ but the way that is never discussed is the "Third Way"..... get the government out.

A few examples of things that would become a non-issue if the monopoly was abolished:

Complaining about prayer in schools. If there was no monopoly, you would be free to bring your money to another competing school.

Complaining about "In God We Trust" on the money. If people were free to use whatever monies, this would be a non-issue.

Complaining about Bibles/religious sayings in the courtroom. If there was not a monopoly on courts, this would be a non-issue.

Gay Marriage? If the government got out of the marriage business, and removed all of the laws/tax breaks on "married couples", this would be a non-issue.

Churches getting tax breaks/subsidies. If the government didn't steal money from you, this would be a non-issue.

And on and on and on.

Aaron:
It would be nice if they applied the same logical arguments to the state that they do to religion. But state-schooling has so ingrained in the minds of most that the government is good and necessary.

I agree cmopletely. The state is currently forcing atheists to do things they do not want (pay for churches, prayer, use money with religious sayings), so instead of arguing for abolishment of the source of the problem, most atheists just want to use the state to force secularism onto everyone else.

Re: Why aren't more atheists on our side?

ThatOldGuy — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 01:31:18 GMT

Aristippus:
I think that most (or at least a significant percentage) of libertarians are atheists. I think that most atheists are not libertarians because they are not in fact skeptics, judging things for themselves. They are simply sheep following a different shepherd.

Pretty much everything that came to my mind.
Good one, Aristippus.

Re: Why aren't more atheists on our side?

Kelvin Silva — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 01:25:26 GMT

THere has been a few discussions...

http://mises.org/community/forums/t/30268.aspx?PageIndex=1

Re: Why aren't more atheists on our side?

Aristippus — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 23:12:46 GMT

I think that most (or at least a significant percentage) of libertarians are atheists. I think that most atheists are not libertarians because they are not in fact skeptics, judging things for themselves. They are simply sheep following a different shepherd.

Re: Why aren't more atheists on our side?

SkepticalMetal — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 23:10:37 GMT

I'm an agnostic, and I see where you're coming from. However, despite this, and despite the fact that I think Bill Maher is a bit of a moron, I do get a kick out of "Religulous."

Re: Why aren't more atheists on our side?

Aaron — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 22:58:51 GMT

I feel the exact same way that you do. Now that I have jumped the mental hurdle of anarchism, religion seems pathetically superficial in comparison. It puzzles me that most atheists are left-leaning. They adamantly reject creationism from a top-down god, but they embrace top-down solutions from the state.

Maybe they are gravitated to the state because it's the most powerful thing currently on earth? The "gods" if you will? Or maybe it's because the same institutions that tend to breed atheism also tend to be populated by left-wing professors.

It would be nice if they applied the same logical arguments to the state that they do to religion. But state-schooling has so ingrained in the minds of most that the government is good and necessary. Anarchism is also usually associated either with vandalism and chaos, or the libertarian left. That, and most people are economically ignorant and believe that the world is functioning under a free market, and thus all its problems are the fault of capitalism.

It's fashionable to hate on captialism right now, regardless of whether or not we're even living in it.

Why aren't more atheists on our side?

TronCat — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 22:31:04 GMT

I was just thinking about this recently, and I can recall to a time (a few years ago) when I was really obsessed with the atheist vs. religion stuff on the internet. I would watch all these debates and videos on Youtube, and read a bunch of stuff on it. It was something I was really interested in, because I had become a "free thinker" and was skeptical about a lot of that stuff since I was young.

However, ever since getting into libertarianism, I have completely lost my interest in the religious debates. I just don't feel it is as important, and looking back on a lot of that stuff that occupied my attention, I have to laugh.

Anyway, the atheist community has big events coming up. One is the Free Thought Convention and the other is "Skepticon". Now, I've come to sort of despise a lot of people in the atheist community because all these events I imagine are just a big jerkfest to "free thought" and a big hate fest on religion.

I just wonder if ANY of the atheists that attend these conventions have ever truly been skeptical about the religion of THE STATE.

Do you think these people are wasting their time? Or rather, do you think they should at least consider being even more "free thinking" by directing some of that skeptical passion toward the state?