Current Events

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

krazy kaju — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:58:41 GMT

Freiheit:
The Ron Paul thing where I convinced a dozen people to vote for Ron Paul in the primary, thinking I had converted them to libertarianism, only to have them all fall back into the lull of statist propaganda once again and be supporting either the Obama or the Palin ticket? Even if the same rate of growth that the libertarian movement has experienced during the Ron Paul Revolution were to hold, then maybe we'll be ready to go in a century or two?

Actually, there are a lot of converts to libertarianism via Ron Paul. I'm one of them.

I didn't think I was doing absolutely nothing, but after working my BUTT off trying to coordinate as many people to oppose this financial bailout thing as I possibly could and spending hours and hours, calling, emailing, writing, faxing, and getting others to do the same, seeing 90% of the American people with me on this, and seeing Congress just go ahead and pass it anyway, it does pretty much seem like I did absolutely nothing. That's the biggest footnote in history of all.

Which is my point: that's what you should be doing. By informing people about basic economics, you will bring them closer to the libertarian fold. However, by declaring that you plan on abolishing the state, you make yourself an outcast.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

liberty student — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:43:18 GMT

You may have. If you did and I missed it, I apologize.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

liberty student — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:42:57 GMT

Anonymous Coward:
Tell me in your honest opinion if you think something like the Whiskey Rebellion could take root today.

Without a doubt.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

hayekianxyz — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:26:32 GMT

liberty student:

GilesStratton:
liberty student:
but for every leap forward, the state is rolling it's tanks over the skulls of millions and taking for itself, bolder and bolder steps towards total control.

This isn't such a bad thing in terms of the liberty movement. In terms of lives lost and money wasted, yes it's horrible no doubt.

I think if it was your loved ones living under the bombs, your attitude might be a little different. It's definitely a different perspective when you are the bomber, and not the bombed.

Did I not specifically point out that I thought the exact same thing?

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

Anonymous Coward — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:20:46 GMT

liberty student:

Freheit, don't take this the wrong way, but generally people here assume any overt attempts at confronting the state will fail. I don't know why it's like that, but it is. But it's good that you're inspired. Stay inspired.

Tell me in your honest opinion if you think something like the Whiskey Rebellion could take root today.

Not only do you need the core group but also the general public giving sympathetic support through not throwing the protesters in jail if they are on a jury trial hearing one of these cases.

I would posit that the biggest uprising today is a counter reaction to the War on Drugs where there aren't too many people willing to jury nullify for 'making the streets a little less safe' and not to mention strict federal sentencing guidelines that keep the 'protesters' locked up for much longer than any reasonable person would deem necessary.

If the populus is willing to lock up all these non-violent drug offenders for extended periods of time what do you thing they would be willing to do to supress a movement that was trying to destroy their precious government?

Plus, as opposition to the bailout bill (even by those being 'saved') shows, the government doesn't place too much emphasis on the 'will of the people'. They know that no matter what kind of fallout happens there will still be a two party system at the end of the day and the needs of the whole supercedes the needs of the individuals in this case.

Worse that happens is they get kicked out of office and get a lobbying job while collecting their government pension.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

liberty student — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:14:16 GMT

GilesStratton:
liberty student:
but for every leap forward, the state is rolling it's tanks over the skulls of millions and taking for itself, bolder and bolder steps towards total control.

This isn't such a bad thing in terms of the liberty movement. In terms of lives lost and money wasted, yes it's horrible no doubt.

I think if it was your loved ones living under the bombs, your attitude might be a little different. It's definitely a different perspective when you are the bomber, and not the bombed.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

hayekianxyz — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:19:33 GMT

liberty student:
I apologize then. It is not now or never. It is, "Why not now?"

People simply aren't ready for anarchism.

liberty student:
The only way there will be support, is if people speak up. If people aren't afraid to take chances, to risk confronting the state, and showing the way. The Mises Institute and Ron Paul have done a lot in the last few years, but for every leap forward, the state is rolling it's tanks over the skulls of millions and taking for itself, bolder and bolder steps towards total control.

I agree, people do have to speak up. In fact that's the most important thing, just getting the message out there. As long as the rest of the population consider the government to be both necessary and even desirable the rest of us will be stuck with it. That's why we have to educate people, introduce the to Callahan's book, introduce them to Rothbard and introduce them to the Mises institute. Even Ron Paul's new book would be a good way to get people into the movement.

But there just isn't the support in place for such a bold move as being stated there, it won't happen soon. The general public won't care if a couple of "radicals" get arrested, in fact they'll support the government for throwing them in prison. And until that changes the liberty movement doesn't have a chance. Of course, Ron Paul's campaign and the Mises Institute help greatly here.

liberty student:
There has to be an urgency about freedom, otherwise it risks becoming complacency.

I agree, there does, people need to educate themselves and introduce others to these ideas. But that doesn't mean being stupid about it.

liberty student:
but for every leap forward, the state is rolling it's tanks over the skulls of millions and taking for itself, bolder and bolder steps towards total control.

This isn't such a bad thing in terms of the liberty movement. In terms of lives lost and money wasted, yes it's horrible no doubt. Yet, the closer the government moves to total control the more it will show how inadequate it is to do so. It will show it's true nature. Look at the bailout, yes it's going to make things worse for the population and yet at the same time it creates a great opportunity for people to see the nature of the government and it provides an excuse to introduce them to Austrian Economics which correctly explains the current state of affairs. There needs to be the objective conditions in place for the government to be overthrown, if the government is tolerable people just won't be as eager to remove it, it'll be easier to tolerate. However, we also need the subjective conditions, the libertarian movement and its ideal need to be widely accepted, otherwise people will accept the answer they're spoonfed by the state that we need the state.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

liberty student — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:56:28 GMT

GilesStratton:
The problem is, you make it seem like a now or never situation.

I apologize then. It is not now or never. It is, "Why not now?"

GilesStratton:
Which it just isn't, there simply isn't enough support for libertarian ideas out there and acting prematurely will hurt the movement.

The only way there will be support, is if people speak up. If people aren't afraid to take chances, to risk confronting the state, and showing the way. The Mises Institute and Ron Paul have done a lot in the last few years, but for every leap forward, the state is rolling it's tanks over the skulls of millions and taking for itself, bolder and bolder steps towards total control.

There has to be an urgency about freedom, otherwise it risks becoming complacency.

Each individual should determine their own level of urgency. But I would say, those who don't like being chastised for (supposedly) "doing nothing" grand might want to think twice before trying to convince someone else to "not do something" grand.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

hayekianxyz — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:39:24 GMT

liberty student:

Freheit, don't take this the wrong way, but generally people here assume any overt attempts at confronting the state will fail. I don't know why it's like that, but it is. But it's good that you're inspired. Stay inspired.

The problem is, you make it seem like a now or never situation. Which it just isn't, there simply isn't enough support for libertarian ideas out there and acting prematurely will hurt the movement.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

hayekianxyz — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:36:16 GMT

Fred Furash:
Those are the definitions. I do agree though that the word "anarchy" is emotionally charged, and Voluntaryism is probably a better word to use for a movement.

I completely agree.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

Stranger — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:33:36 GMT

Telpeurion:

About 300 million people stand between you and your "anarchy".

No that is incorrect. The government is only a few million people, and most of them are not going to be involved in the fight. Only the police, the politicians and eventually the military will fight.

If you need inspiration, look at what recidivist protesters do. They deliberately break the law and end up in jail for it. But then they do it again.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

liberty student — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:38:29 GMT

Freheit, don't take this the wrong way, but generally people here assume any overt attempts at confronting the state will fail. I don't know why it's like that, but it is. But it's good that you're inspired. Stay inspired.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

Solredime — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:18:50 GMT

Telpeurion:

The word anarchy is a sick thing to begin with, I thought you were all in favor of the rule of law, not the rule of none.

So uhm, having an entire ruling class above the law is your definition of the rule of law? When dictators can say "I am the law!"? That, is precisely what lawlessness is. And btw, the word for lawlessness is anomie, not anarchy. In fact, anarchy is a synonym for a lawful society, for only when there are no archons above the law, when everyone is equal before it, can there be a true rule of law. Any plans to create order and law by creating a ruling class above it, are futile and self-defeating.

Those are the definitions. I do agree though that the word "anarchy" is emotionally charged, and Voluntaryism is probably a better word to use for a movement.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

Josiah Schmidt — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 04:24:18 GMT

krazy kaju:

Freiheit:
At the rate that Americans have been becoming libertarians over the past century, I'd say that maybe we'll be ready to go in another 4000 years. Till then, sit back at the computer desk, and let's just keep "educating" and doing little-to-nothing else.

Will we be any less in danger of having the government go Waco on us 50 years from now? 100 years from now? 500?

I guess you haven't really been following this entire Ron Paul thing going on then, huh? And it's nice to know that you've been doing absolutely nothing to spread libertarianism. My story, however, is different.

The Ron Paul thing where I convinced a dozen people to vote for Ron Paul in the primary, thinking I had converted them to libertarianism, only to have them all fall back into the lull of statist propaganda once again and be supporting either the Obama or the Palin ticket? Even if the same rate of growth that the libertarian movement has experienced during the Ron Paul Revolution were to hold, then maybe we'll be ready to go in a century or two?

I didn't think I was doing absolutely nothing, but after working my BUTT off trying to coordinate as many people to oppose this financial bailout thing as I possibly could and spending hours and hours, calling, emailing, writing, faxing, and getting others to do the same, seeing 90% of the American people with me on this, and seeing Congress just go ahead and pass it anyway, it does pretty much seem like I did absolutely nothing. That's the biggest footnote in history of all.

Re: Something interesting is brewing over on Ron Paul Forums...

krazy kaju — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 04:19:02 GMT

Freiheit:
At the rate that Americans have been becoming libertarians over the past century, I'd say that maybe we'll be ready to go in another 4000 years. Till then, sit back at the computer desk, and let's just keep "educating" and doing little-to-nothing else.

Will we be any less in danger of having the government go Waco on us 50 years from now? 100 years from now? 500?

I guess you haven't really been following this entire Ron Paul thing going on then, huh? And it's nice to know that you've been doing absolutely nothing to spread libertarianism. My story, however, is different.