Newbies

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

chloe732 — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 06:37:10 GMT

SilentXtarian:

Do I have it down so far? I have zero training in economics... it's probably a good idea that I get some. I think I have a better understanding now... I just want to make sure I'm on the right track.

You, sir, are on the right track. I think you will discover that ignorance is receding and a new paradigm is at hand.

SilentXtarian:

The austrian theory states that central banks can cause bust-boom cycles. It does this by when central banks inflate the currency it leads people to think they have more money than they actually have. It has to inflate the currency more to keep it going and eventually the whole system comes crashing down because they can't inflate any more- they've over inflated and then the statist economy goes through a period of a bust where they don't have that artificial growth any more.

I know you are just presenting a summary, but it is critical to understand that is not merely that printing money "leads people to think they have more money than they actually have."

Printing money (and the lowered interest rate) causes capital to be misdirected, thus distorting the structure of production. The central bank's intervention (money printing) causes increased consumption AND investment to occur simultaneously. This is the boom. In reality, all this does is rob the economy of real resources. It is unsustainable. When the central bank stops printing, the malinvestments are revealed. The free market tries to readjust the structure of production toward sustainable activities, but the central bank and central government intervene (once again, as they did during the boom). This prolongs and deepens the depression as more resources are consumed, squandered, or destroyed. Zero interest rate policy, "quantitative easing", and deficit spending (referred to as "stimulus" by the ignorant) all contribute to increased destruction of valuable, scarce, precious, capital.

I, too, am new to the Austrian school. I have watched the housing boom and subsequent bust, and marvel at how Austrian business cycle theory explains it all. I am a noob, but I feel like I have a better understanding of how the economy ACTUALLY WORKS than do Phd Keynesian eggheads.

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

SilentXtarian — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:09:41 GMT

Thanks for all of the suggestions! I feel like I'm beginning to get the hang of the Austrian theory. I've read Libertarian Manifesto by Rothbard, Principles of Economics by Carl Menger, Omnipotent Government, Economics in One Lesson, Meltdown: A Free Market Lesson in Economcis and a few Ron Paul books. I'm reading Human Action right now. I think I get the basics of the theory. It's that economic action is purposeful.

When government interferes with the free market it's trying to prevent loss- and loss is something natural. It's something that happens. Government intervention creates a system of dependency where the people who will lose things will pressure the government in protecting them fro the successful competitors. It's economic populism that drives them yet they see good in it... yet it is compulsion at the same time because they're coercing the tax payers money for it.

The austrian theory states that central banks can cause bust-boom cycles. It does this by when central banks inflate the currency it leads people to think they have more money than they actually have. It has to inflate the currency more to keep it going and eventually the whole system comes crashing down because they can't inflate any more- they've over inflated and then the statist economy goes through a period of a bust where they don't have that artificial growth any more.

Entrepreneurs and business people have to respond to the free market. They make decisions about what goods to make based on what trends they see in the free market. If good A is wanted more than good B they'll make more of good A.

Market prices correspond to the subjective theory of value. It's the consumers that set the prices. It just so happens that money is a medium of exchange for this. The prices of goods is not equivalent to the labor that goes in to it but rather how much people want the said good.

All business people have to respond to the rules of competition. Unless they're being helped by the government and their losses are protected they have to respond to the same rules as every competitor. They respond to the wants and needs of other people or they'd lose money.

It's not a question of if people have free will or not. Acting man makes a choice and that choice is neither rational nor irrational. It is a logical choice and while acting man/woman's means may differ from what we would do the acting person has to outweigh the costs with the benefits, and, if it would bring benefits to them they would do it. If not... they would not pursue the action.

Government intervention doesn't create wealth. It only transfers wealth from one area to another. Government intervention requires a lot of money so the losses in the government program are socialized by taxes and so when the government intervenes in the economy it doesn't follow the free market system... and when it doesn't do that it/the industries that accept the government intervention pays the price for it. They think they have more money than they actually have and which creates a bubble and it comes crashing down on them later.

Do I have it down so far? I have zero training in economics... it's probably a good idea that I get some. I think I have a better understanding now... I just want to make sure I'm on the right track.

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

Wanderer — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 05:35:04 GMT

I like "Pillars of Prosperity" by Ron Paul. But that's just me...

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

jtucker — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 04:17:35 GMT

Great suggestions. I especially like Man, Economy, and State. Read that and you are master of the universe. It really teaches. Mises's HA is a different kind of book, the book of a lifetime.

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

AnonLLF — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:21:00 GMT

I guess I'm only a bit further along the road than you.

I just this year began to grasp the basic elements of austrian economics.I'm not a naturally gifted person in this areas but I'm getting there.I find podcast,Mp3's on my I-pod and short articles help, as well as long Pdf's. a good very simplistic overview that helped me was the free market conomics a syllabus( http://mises.org/books/syllabus.pdf) it mostly covers misesian type austrian economics with a big of rothbard.Not very anarchist but still very good.

Good luck.

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

SilentXtarian — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:01:51 GMT

I think I'm all set now. I just ordered one of the text-books recommended above. I'm really interested in how the fed manipulates the free market... now that I've learned about how the financial markets work I see how the fed manipulates our market and other markets a bit clearer... I find it ironic how I've arrived at austrian economic conclusions just by taking a look at the financial system and seeing how it works. Thanks for all of the help!

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

SilentXtarian — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 06:33:10 GMT

I have a few questions. The whole idea of the system we have seems really alien to me. I just don't get why people can call this socialist stock market we have a free market. Why do we have a system built upon lies? Can someone answer a few more questions for me before I go on doing more research?

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

SilentXtarian — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:06:12 GMT

The book I read was A Guide to Financial Markets by Charles R Geisst. It feels weird because now I have more questions than answers. I think that wall-street and the stock exchange sounds more like socialism than so the free market. I'm curious that before I go read those books if anyone knows about books about the idea of wall-street socialism that I could read... I want to learn a bit more about that subject. I was surprised about how non-free market the ideals of the financial market sounded like.

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

hayekianxyz — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:17:09 GMT

Jon Irenicus:

TEEoPP has most of his methodological writings coupled with short articles on economics (particularly public goods, taxation, the calculation argument &c.), enough economics to make it worthwhile. Though not groundbreaking they extend the Austrian case against the provision of public goods by the government and Hoppe has a lot of good articles on money in there too.

It's not essential reading though, I didn't felt like a learned a whole lot after reading. As I said, I think a few articles could be picked from there that might be beneficial (those of money, public goods, and the one on methodology). But other than that, I don't think there's much groundbreaking in there, definately skip the articles on argumentation ethics.

SilentXtarian:
Thanks for the concise list. I just picked up a book from my university's library (I'm taking a summer class at a university I'm interested in going to) and it's about the market- the way the market actually works. I am just wondering if I am going about it the right way. I figured that I would rather learn about the whole overview of the market and how it works in reality first before I started looking at theories and text-books which defined the economic terms. This one seems to do a decent job at explaining the market. I already have a fairly decent idea about how the stock market works now, and, how the federal reserve manipulates the market and how central banks in other nations seem to have an adverse effect on the market. My question is from here- how should I go about when I read about economic theories- how should I go about reading them? It's just that I would think usually people look at the individual theories at first and then learn more about specifics... but am I going about this the right way?

I began to study economics by myself, like yourself I suppose. At first a lot of it was foreign and I didn't understand, keep with it, make sure to study everything you read in depth. I had a lot of problems with more of the techincal terms, and especially financial terms. One thing that might be worthwhile is picking up a finance textbook and studying that before you get into economic theory. A lot of it won't be necessary, but some of it will greatly help your economic understand. Also, if you have the chance, buy an economics dictionary and look up any words you don't know there.

Which book on the market have you looked at? To be honest I'd go straight into the books I suggested, read those and you'll go a long way in your understanding of economics. I'm assuming your maths schools are too great, if I'm wrong correct me, but as such I haven't recommended much more than principles level micro since it will be beyond your understanding.

When I began studying economics I didn't really know what area most interested me, recently, however, I've become very interested in studying macroeconomics. So just get a good understanding of economic theory and then find what area interests you and focus on that area. That works I've suggested with some additions mentioned by Jon (Individualism and Economic Order, Socialism) will give you a really good understanding of general economics, more so of Austrian economics.

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

James Greene — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:01:11 GMT

Anarchist Cain:

Meltdown by Thomas E Woods Jr.

Also this is a very informative and funny presentation by Peter Schiff from the Austrian Scholars Conference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgMclXX5msc

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

Conza88 — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 08:09:19 GMT

What is the Free Market? by Murray N. Rothbard

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

SilentXtarian — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 04:57:23 GMT

GilesStratton:

SilentXtarian:
Perhaps I need to study economics more before I take the austrian school of thought more seriously and give more consideration to it so I won't make ignorant judgments about it.

You're on the right track here, this is very important that you understand this. Although, what I'd add is that it's not worth giving up Austrian economics to focus on mainstream economics, study both at the same time and you'll have a better understanding of both. Austrian economics and mainstream economics are both neoclassical schools of thought, granted, mainstream economics is very formalist and positivist, but at the end of the day, both schools of thought have the intention of explaning price formation with the use of analysis of marginal choices on the behalf of individuals. One of Rothbard's aims in writing Man, Economy and State was to highlight the affinities between Marshallian price theory and Austrian price theory.

If you study all of the following, in some depth, you'll know more economics than most on these forums;

Gregory Mankiw - Principles of Economics (this is a principles level text, so it's a good introduction to mainstream thought)

David Moss - The Concise Guide to Macroeconomics

David Friedman - Price Theory

Olivier Blanchard - Macroeconomics

Carl Menger - Principles of Economics

Gene Callahan - Economics for Real People

Milton Shapiro - Foundations of the Market Price System

Murray Rothbard - Man, Economy and State

Friedrich Hayek - Prices and Production

Jesus Huerta de Soto - Money, Bank Credit and Economic Cycles

Roger Garrison - Time and Money

That list covers both Austrian and mainstream analysis of micro and macro economic thought, an in depth study of those books might take some time, but the payoff in terms of your understand of Austrian economics will be huge. Other books I might add would be Joseph Salerno's textbook that is currently being written, but I am hugely looking forward to. Also, Kirzner has a textbook on Austrian price theory, that might be very helpful to you.

Thanks for the concise list. I just picked up a book from my university's library (I'm taking a summer class at a university I'm interested in going to) and it's about the market- the way the market actually works. I am just wondering if I am going about it the right way. I figured that I would rather learn about the whole overview of the market and how it works in reality first before I started looking at theories and text-books which defined the economic terms. This one seems to do a decent job at explaining the market. I already have a fairly decent idea about how the stock market works now, and, how the federal reserve manipulates the market and how central banks in other nations seem to have an adverse effect on the market. My question is from here- how should I go about when I read about economic theories- how should I go about reading them? It's just that I would think usually people look at the individual theories at first and then learn more about specifics... but am I going about this the right way?

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

Jon Irenicus — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:40:46 GMT

TEEoPP has most of his methodological writings coupled with short articles on economics (particularly public goods, taxation, the calculation argument &c.), enough economics to make it worthwhile. Though not groundbreaking they extend the Austrian case against the provision of public goods by the government and Hoppe has a lot of good articles on money in there too.

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

hayekianxyz — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:13:13 GMT

My point was to be provide a concise list, although, Individualism and Economy Order and Socialism would be good additions to the Austrian side of the list. I wouldn't include Human Action because I don't think that there's any economics there that isn't it Rothbard's subsequent treatise. I'd take both of the Hoppe books off of your list, there's nothing particularly groundbreaking in either of them, instead I'd suggest a few of his essays on money and banking and political economy.

I'd replace your Hazlitt suggestion with either the book he edited (The Critics of Keynesian Economics) or Hutt's book (The Keynesian Episode). I'd take Reisman off of any introductory list, and I purposefully left epistemological books off of the list, although I'd put Hoppe's Economic Science and the Austrian Method instead of those that you suggested, at least as an introduction.

Good call on the Ekelund book.

Re: I've done a lot of reading and research and I still feel like a noob.

Jon Irenicus — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:35:44 GMT

I'd add Mises's The Theory of Money and Credit, Socialism and Human Action as well as his Epistemological Problems of Economics and Theory and History. The latter two do not directly concern economics but rather issues surrounding the discipline, and they thus give a broader context of how and why Austrians think the way they do. At the risk of overwhelming Silent, I'd add Hayek's The Counter-Revolution of Science and Individualism and the economic order (this one is useful to contrast with Socialism to see how Mises and Hayek differ) and Hoppe's The Economics and Ethics of Private Property and A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism for the same reasons. Reisman also develops a very interesting approach to fusing classical and Austrian economics in his Capitalism. Hazlitt's The Failure of New Economics (title may differ slightly) is good if you want to see a line-by-line refutation of Keynesian thinking, whilst studying the topic. Finally, once you're done with the economics, I'd move on to Long's book on Mises and Wittgenstein and Selgin's Praxeology & Understanding to better comprehend Austrian methodology. I hear Mises's biography by Hulsmann also has a lot of economics in it. Don't take these as books you need to read at once, but rather over the course say, of a decade. There is no rush.

A good comprehensive tome on neoclassical economics is Robert Ekelund's (might not be the exact title) Private Markets and Public Choice.