Newbies

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

Stolz25 — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:41:16 GMT

wombatron:

Laughing Man:

Bottle caps aren't very scarce.

They are in a post-apocalyptic wasteland!

I laughed out loud.

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

jason4liberty — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:35:16 GMT

ngoldovsky:
the human mind IS the most valuable commodity that we have

Geez! I am glad I read on because I thought you were advocating the use of human minds as money!

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

jason4liberty — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:33:48 GMT

Competitive money did not lead to legal tender. The exercise of government power led to legal tender. The US Government declared Federal Reserve Notes legal tender so that the supply of money and credit could be expanded, allowing the government to steal the purchasing power of your existing money and spend it themselves. They did this at the direct request and in partnership with the large banking players, who benefit as the first recipients of the new money and also because fiat money allows a much higher degree of fractional reserve (meaning low reserve ratios), which drives up banking profits.

The gold (coin) standard became unworkable (from the perspective of the State and banking interests) because it served as a check on the inflation of money and credit. People like you and me could redeem the circulating notes for frickin' gold. Something that no one can just make more of. A coin standard of a scarce resource is the ultimate check on government spending and power. It makes the State be up front in their theft, by levying taxes directly, and not quietly stealing your real wealth (purchasing power) via monetary inflation. A coin standard also keeps the banks honest, because they can't make more of the commodity any more than the State can.

Put basically, fiat paper money allows the State and the banks to steal the purchasing power of your savings via inflation of money and credit. A coin standard puts severe checks on the ability of the State and the banks to do these things, which is why they hate them and propagandize against them.

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

Luis Buenaventura — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:24:27 GMT

Thedesolateone:

Marko:

Thedesolateone:

Before coming onto the mises forum, i was playing Fallout 3 - that game is amazing.

But i always wonder how bottle caps came to be used as a currency - I thought barter would be more likely.

Fallout 3 is a horrible game, an enormous let down for any old Fallout fans. Its writting is shockingly poor and has none of the trademark Fallout feel, not surprising since it was made by corporate robots and masters of dumbing down - Bethesda, rather than by the original authors (just another way how we get screwed by IP).

Bottle caps are a remnant from Fallout 1. You can read all about it on Fallout Wikia. Here is an excerpt:

"Bottle caps are backed by The Hub merchants. The reasoning for their support is that the technology to manufacture bottle caps and paint the surface has been lost in the Great War, which would greatly limit any counterfeiting efforts. Secondly, there is a limited number of bottle caps, which would serve to preserve their value to some degree."

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bottle_caps

But to really get it you`d have to experience the real Fallout games. The real reason was rather that original Fallouts got a kick from being slightly eccentric.

Fallout 3 is a pro game - although I may try the old ones out if they're PS2 and cheap.

Just to totally digress from economics, you can buy them at http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/fallout because they sell most old famous games their (not a HACKER, and no I didn't write that because I am a hacker).

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

Andrew Cain — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 03:20:38 GMT

"They are in a post-apocalyptic wasteland!"

....Touche sir...

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

ngoldovsky — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:31:58 GMT

How come competitive money has so far led to legal tender?

Also how come the gold standard became unworkable in the end?

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

Thedesolateone — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:16:51 GMT

Marko:

Thedesolateone:

Before coming onto the mises forum, i was playing Fallout 3 - that game is amazing.

But i always wonder how bottle caps came to be used as a currency - I thought barter would be more likely.

Fallout 3 is a horrible game, an enormous let down for any old Fallout fans. Its writting is shockingly poor and has none of the trademark Fallout feel, not surprising since it was made by corporate robots and masters of dumbing down - Bethesda, rather than by the original authors (just another way how we get screwed by IP).

Bottle caps are a remnant from Fallout 1. You can read all about it on Fallout Wikia. Here is an excerpt:

"Bottle caps are backed by The Hub merchants. The reasoning for their support is that the technology to manufacture bottle caps and paint the surface has been lost in the Great War, which would greatly limit any counterfeiting efforts. Secondly, there is a limited number of bottle caps, which would serve to preserve their value to some degree."

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bottle_caps

But to really get it you`d have to experience the real Fallout games. The real reason was rather that original Fallouts got a kick from being slightly eccentric.

Fallout 3 is a pro game - although I may try the old ones out if they're PS2 and cheap.

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

CorporateGhost — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 03:05:19 GMT

ngoldovsky:
Cultivating themselves was their value, how does one emulate a form of money from that?

Well you can't create a form of money based only on the intellect itself because you can not give a material value to thing like the intellect, love, life and other abstract and subjective concepts,but just because the can't have a material value doesn't mean that they are not important to society, in fact is quite the opposite.

The question of why people assign value to things like gold is a psychological/philosophical question rather than an economical one.From an economical point of view I could only tell you that based on their action people consider gold to be something of value.Praxiology doesn't try to change men, it deals with men as they are.

ngoldovsky:
I am not so sure how true that is. If you look at great men from great periods, they were capable at many things, not specialized.

Plato,Da Vinci and Newton were not representative of the average men of their times,but regardless of that, we have to understand what permitted this men to dedicate their lives to the intellectual achievements.

Scientific investigation doesn't produce any immediate wealth, research and experimentation require a lot of resources and can years before it actually produce anything tangible. During those periods scientist need resources(witch they do not produce themselves) not only for their works but also to support themselves.The division of labor increases the production of wealth in a way that it alouds some people to dedicate exclusively to intellectual tasks.

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

nibbler491 — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 12:32:25 GMT

The OP should read Rothbard's "What has government done to our money," as he seems to have a really convoluted idea of what money is.

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

Marko — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:25:53 GMT

Thedesolateone:

Before coming onto the mises forum, i was playing Fallout 3 - that game is amazing.

But i always wonder how bottle caps came to be used as a currency - I thought barter would be more likely.

Fallout 3 is a horrible game, an enormous let down for any old Fallout fans. Its writting is shockingly poor and has none of the trademark Fallout feel, not surprising since it was made by corporate robots and masters of dumbing down - Bethesda, rather than by the original authors (just another way how we get screwed by IP).

Bottle caps are a remnant from Fallout 1. You can read all about it on Fallout Wikia. Here is an excerpt:

"Bottle caps are backed by The Hub merchants. The reasoning for their support is that the technology to manufacture bottle caps and paint the surface has been lost in the Great War, which would greatly limit any counterfeiting efforts. Secondly, there is a limited number of bottle caps, which would serve to preserve their value to some degree."

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bottle_caps

But to really get it you`d have to experience the real Fallout games. The real reason was rather that original Fallouts got a kick from being slightly eccentric.

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

ngoldovsky — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 06:04:18 GMT

I want to thank those with value added posts, but they would just probably tell me that i am not omniscient enough to decide what constitutes a value added post, and that perhaps someones dismissive two sentence fragment led someone else to a brilliant discovery; but that just widens the scope yet again.

CorporateGhost:
Gold has been historically chosen as money because its properties, its properties,its scarcity,its beauty etc.

People were more superstitious back then, and gold seemed more like a symbol of vanity; because its rare and shiny, if you have it you are better, so lets utilize resources and mobilize armies to get more of it. You have gold you feel good, you don't you feel bad, maybe even turn against the law to get it. If the reward system in the brain is using this algorithm, it is bound to create irrational and subversive behavior.

shit, i feel a dead end.

CorporateGhost:
The achievements of the renaissance and especially the industrial revolution were obtained thanks to specialization and the division of labor.

I am not so sure how true that is. If you look at great men from great periods, they were capable at many things, not specialized. Plato and Socrates, spoke of many subjects quite profoundly to this day. Michel de Montaigne, spoke of no one thing but of his own experience. Moving to the Renaissance, what does the term Renaissance man mean; a man who could do many things well. Da Vinci; inventor, story teller, artist. What was Newton? Was he a one-narrow-subject-ist? He spoke of physics, mathematics, policy, geography, astronomy, philosophy. Cultivating themselves was their value, how does one emulate a form of money from that? It's not a rhetorical question i ask i just seem to want a practical answer to a non-practical question.

excuse me if it offends

CorporateGhost:
The goal of society can't be defined because society is compose by many different individuals, each on with its own goals. The point of liberalism is that everyone should be free to pursue their own interests.If an individual wants breast implants and/or Paris Hilton paper weights (whatever that is) who are you to decide what he/she should do his/her own life?

Yes, you and Eduard are right, i was a bit too hasty in making that assertion, but to every civilization is there not a basic set of a priori axioms that largely influence human behavior?

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

CorporateGhost — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 03:17:15 GMT

ngoldovsky:
I think a common theme amongst what you are all saying is that you don't necessarily advocate the gold standard as much as having a system that represents wealth by a tangible resource. Then question that arises in my mind then is if you consider wood, silver, platinum etc... all forms of money, in a free market would this definition not just continue ad infinitum to the point that it is not distinguishable from barter? How could this take form in our world?

Money is barter, we call money to the commodity that is most widely accept in exchange for goods an services. For example, the Aztecs engaged in all forms of bartering for example trading food for clothes.

To them, the cacao seed (the thing that is used to make chocolate) had a religious importance but it was also consumed as a form of drinkable chocolate.Because of its properties,the cacao seed became widely accept in bartering, people accepted in most cases not because they wanted to consume it themselves but because the knew some on else wold accept it in exchange for the thing that they did wanted to consume,so the cacao seeds became money for them.

Gold has been historically chosen as money because its properties, its properties,its scarcity,its beauty etc.

The "text book" characteristics of good money are:

   1. General acceptability
   2. Stability of value
   3. Divisibility
   4. Homogeneity (i.e. an ounce of gold is equal to any other ounce of gold)

The markets usually chose commodities that have this characteristics, as money.

ngoldovsky:
Think of the Renaissance or the industrial revolution, when there was a boom in people who were multi talented; who had knowledge of painting, mathematics invention, chemistry etc... Then there are those times of barbarianism and blinding specialization.

The achievements of the renaissance and especially the industrial revolution were obtained thanks to specialization and the division of labor.

ngoldovsky:
What i mean when i say the goal of society needs to be defined is because without it liberalism will utilize resources towards breast implants and Paris Hilton paper weights. I think it is important to understand the presuppositions we set out on which we base our economies. What does attributing a high value to gold presuppose about the direction an economy will head towards?

The goal of society can't be defined because society is compose by many different individuals, each on with its own goals. The point of liberalism is that everyone should be free to pursue their own interests.If an individual wants breast implants and/or Paris Hilton paper weights (whatever that is) who are you to decide what he/she should do his/her own life?

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

Thedesolateone — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:49:01 GMT

Twilight:

laminustacitus:

That's something about Fallout 3 that always annoyed me without end. How could any monetary system, with any prayer of being functional, be supported by bottlecaps!

A non-inflatable resource (at least in the short term), small, easily carried - yup, fits the bill perfectly. Of course, I wouldn't expect a single currency to be used so uniformly as bottlecaps are in Fallout 3, but as far as having value as a currency, I see nothing wrong with it. ;)

Before coming onto the mises forum, i was playing Fallout 3 - that game is amazing.

But i always wonder how bottle caps came to be used as a currency - I thought barter would be more likely.

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

Conza88 — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:28:08 GMT

I think the Austrians / Libertarians usage of "gold standard" confuses ALOT of people. Even those of the wannabe free market origin (chicago).

I think when explaining alot of people fall short of stating that = it is a free market in money.

Ah well, maybe that was just me. I'd assume the other person knew that. Instead you get clowns debating against a "gold standard", who have somehow come to the conclusion we're adovcating government be used to coercively force the market to use it. (rolleyes!)

Re: is gold standard any more ethical than fiat money

Twilight — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:25:45 GMT

laminustacitus:

That's something about Fallout 3 that always annoyed me without end. How could any monetary system, with any prayer of being functional, be supported by bottlecaps!

A non-inflatable resource (at least in the short term), small, easily carried - yup, fits the bill perfectly. Of course, I wouldn't expect a single currency to be used so uniformly as bottlecaps are in Fallout 3, but as far as having value as a currency, I see nothing wrong with it. ;)