General

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

JB Say — Thu, 23 Jun 2011 16:36:52 GMT

I am curious to see how our "libertrian" Israeli apologists will spin this story about Israel's continued aggression against the Palestinians, how they will make the Palestinians the aggressors and the ruthless Israeli state the good guys and the victims of Palestinian agression all the while maintaining their passionate attachment to libertarian values.

Israeli Human right organization Betselem just issued a report on Israeli demolishion of Palestinian homes.

Highlights:

In the past week, Civil Administration inspectors, accompanied by soldiers and Border Police officers, demolished 33 residential structures in the Palestinian communities Fasayil, al-Hadidiyeh, and Yarza, all in the Jordan Valley, and in Khirbet Bir al-‘Id, in the southern Hebron hills. These were home to 238 persons, 129 of them minors. According to B'Tselem’s figures, since the beginning of 2011, the Civil Administration has demolished 103 residential structures in Area C, most of them tents, huts, and tin shacks, in which 706 persons lived (including 341 minors)

This is a sharp increase in home demolitions in Area C. In 2010, by comparison, the Civil Administration demolished 86 residential structures. In 2009, the figure was 28.

Israel continues to control all aspects of Palestinian life in Area C, including planning and building. Yet few Civil Administration outline plans have been made for Palestinian communities, and they do not enable any construction or development beyond what already exists, making it impossible for Palestinians to build legally in these areas.

Some of the demolished structures were in places the army had declared “firing zones.” Almost half of the land in the Jordan Valley and northern Dead Sea area has been declared as “firing zones,” even areas located along main traffic arteries or next to land cultivated by settlers; some of the land declared as such a zone is actually cultivated by settlers. The declaration means Israel has prohibited Palestinians from living in these areas, although Palestinian communities existed in them prior to the occupation.

The discrimination in enforcing the planning and building laws is evident in Khirbet Bir al-‘Id, next to which the Mizpe Ya’ir outpost was built in 1998. The outpost is considered illegal under Israeli government interpretation, too. As opposed to the Civil Administration's policy of demolishing Palestinian structures built without a permit, the state did nothing to prevent establishment of the settler outpost and approved its connection to water and electricity. The Ministry of Housing has funded infrastructure for the outpost, including an access road.

Source: http://www.btselem.org/press-release/sharp-increase-west-bank-home-demolition

To see a map of the west bank and area C go here: http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.background-resource.php?resourceID=1170

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

Marko — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 23:01:26 GMT

Palestinians renounce return to Israel for reasons mentioned by me, and all that people here were able to respond with was (Marko): "Oh, so you blame everything on Russians."

I am Russian. Moskovite. I do not blame anything on anyone. I state facts of history. Such trickery and namecalling will not work on me, hence I decided to leave this thread.

Puhlize. We've talked before in other threads where you indicated your country of residence and your view of that which is Russian.

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

thesystemworks — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 21:44:00 GMT

Ron Paul made some mistakes in that chapter and has some things I would seriously disagree with. However, I would agree with you that calling him anti-Semitic is vicious and wrong. I was offered a job working with a certain prominent neoconservative, that I'm sure everyone here would know of, on a new project. I was all set to start, but when word got out that I was a Ron Paul fan, things changed and I was let go. That person is of the 'Ron Paul is anti-Semitic' persuasion.

Ron's view on the voices heard on the US media are more relevant to the United States. In Europe, the situation is exactly the opposite to a ridiculous extent.

There was Jewish rule in Jerusalem for far more than 170 years, and a Jewish majority in the city even longer. David conquered it, and it was the seat of the United Monarchy. Then it was the capital of Judah. After Babylon, Jews did run it and there was a Jewish king who ran internal matters even if it was a Persian satellite kingdom. Then there was the era of the Macabees. And so on.

'Greater Israel' as it is advocated by a minority, is nowhere near most of the Middle East.

Jews did not steal all the land either. It was bought, and what belonged to the previous state (yes, we don't like it, but there you are) subsequently beloned to the Jewish state. Some was captured in the war, but not all Arabs who came under Israeli jurisdiction left or had property taken.

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

thesystemworks — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 21:38:08 GMT

I would disagree with your opinion on Diaspora Jewish attitudes.

According to the Institute for Jewish Policy Research (at the time led by Anthony Lerman, who is very critical of Israel and a self-declared non-Zionist), about 3% of Jews in the UK consider themselves 'hostile' to Israel. Another 15% or so are indifferent or neutral. Just under 50% surveyed call themselves Zionists or very supportive. The remainder are more moderately supportive. You can probably find the PDF survey on their website. In the English community to label oneself 'Zionist' often means one intends on or considers living in Israel, so that would explain the discrepancy in the number of 'Zionists' and Israel's supporters.

In my experience, Jews in the Commonwealth countries like Australia and South Africa identify very deeply with Israel, noticeably more so than their British counterparts. Its very much a part of being Jewish to them. Ireland's Jewish community has always been intensely Zionist, more so than England. Many followers of Jabotinsky and the Revisionist Zionists wound up in Ireland for some reason.

American Jews are interesting. They are the most comfortable and successful Jewish community in history. There is a strong support base there, but a huge amount of American Jews are apathetic about Israel and Israel matters little in their day-to-day lives. They find it tough to identify. One of my friends from New York, who made aliyah many years ago constantly lambasts the American Jewish community for being 'too comfortable', and too slack in their rate of aliyah. Still, while many might be indifferent to fellow members of the tribe in Israel, very few would be crazily anti-Zionist in the mold of moonbats like Norman Finkelstein, who is hated among the vast majority of the Jewish community.

I've been involved in many Jewish communal affairs and I confess to never meeting an anti-Zionist Jew. Most of my friends say the same. I have been at talks and presentations where anti-Zionist Jews were invited, but never in 'day-to-day' Jewish living have I encountered one. Yet if I were to get my news exclusively from the BBC or The Guardian I would never understand just how minor this movement is - same if I lived in the la-la land of academia. Nearly all Jewish kids here in England spend time in Israel, on a gap-year or in various programs. Most of us see Israel as an important part of our identity. Its our National Home, after all.

My blog is mostly for Irish and UK readers, so I didn't include Jews like Rothbard. Jews of that persuasion wouldn't register on the radar at all here. I was speaking generally, not accounting for all cases.

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

JB Say — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 17:16:40 GMT

Ron Paul on Zionism

Here is what Ron Paul, also accused by Israel's apologists of anti-semitism, had to say on Zionism:

“It’s not in its cultural, religious , or language aspirations that Zionism has inspired the most controversy but rather in its political goals of securing a geographic homeland”.

“[the] taking of land from one group for the benefit of another has been criticized by most Muslims, many Christians, and Jews as well. The entitlement argument that this new arrangement was ordered by God and reflects ancient ownership by the Jews is not an easy case to make. This belief inspires those who support the use of force to achieve an expanding geographic presence for a greater Israel, including most of the Middle East.

“ Jerusalem (Palestine), through the many centuries, was under Jewish rule for only about 170 years. In other words , there are many competing claims for the same land (…) Dozens of other regimes occupied the land for much longer periods of time (…) Muslims ruled Jerusalem for 1,191 years”.

“Religious interpretation of God’s desires are subjective and can never be settled through reason”

“Within Israeli politics, there is a great debate and diversity of opinion. The liberal party in Israel often raises questions about the apartheid conditions that Palestinians are subjected to”.

“The dissidents who speak out in Israel are rarely quoted here in the United States, and any opposition arising in the United States is rarely reported in our media”.

Liberty Defined p 313-320

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

JB Say — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:11:26 GMT

You say: “Israel’s enemies love finding Jews who agree with their opinions... Pathetically, they claim that because a certain Jew agrees with them, they must be right on the issue of the Jewish state”

First I don’t consider myself an enemy of Israel. I criticize certain Israeli policies against the Palestinians: murder, dispossession, discrimination and other forms of mistreatment.

Second, it's what those Jews have to say that is important. It just happens that Jews in general are less afraid of criticizing Israel than gentiles. When people like Ilan Pappe, Avi Shlaim, Norman Finkelstein, Noam chomsky criticize Israel thay don't just say: " I am a Jew and Israel sucks!", they provide facts. Facts that most of the time Zionists fail to disprove so they resort to ad hominem attacks.

“This is despite the fact that the vast majority of Jews are supportive of Israel, so they will always be ‘out-Jewed’ in every dispute”

I am not sure this is true anymore. Zionist propaganda is becoming less and less effective with diaspora Jews. "Sociologists Stephen Cohen and Ari Kelman have now confirmed what everyone already knew: Young American Jews do not care very much about Israel. They are not just apathetic about Israel, that indifference is "giving way to downright alienation," write Cohen and Kelman."

See this article in the Jerusalem Post: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=78867

See Cohen and Kelma’s report entitled: “Beyond Distancing: “Young American Jews and Their Alienation From Israel”

http://www.acbp.net/About/PDF/Beyond%20Distancing.pdf

“The tactic is often used to deflect charges of anti-Semitism.”

Anti-semitism has lost its meaning. It used to mean hating the Jews. Now it’s just a label used to try to intimidate and silence Israel’s critics. When you print too much money it loses its value. When you use the anti-semitism label too often it loses its potency.

“Opposition to Zionism in the Jewish community comes broadly in two forms. Firstly, there are Jews who happen to be on the far-left, such as Communist Tony Greenstein in the UK, Marxist Shlomo Sand in Israel and post-modernist psycho-babbler Jacqueline Rose at Queen Mary. These people hate Israel for the same reasons their non-Jewish counterparts do (such as Alexander Cockburn, George Galloway or Richard Boyd-Barrett), and not for any particular ‘Jewish’ reason.”

It’s not because someone has left leanings that they can’t be a decent person and feel moral outrage at Israel’s crimes.

“The other strand comes from elements of the Haredi community, most notably from the tiny, extremist and bizarre Naturei Karta, but also the Satmar Hasidim. They base their opposition to Zionism on a midrash (a kind of exegesis) in the Talmud based on the Song of Songs”

Well you left out libertarian Jewish critics of Israel like Murray Rothbard. He was neither a leftist nor a religious Jew.

Contrary to what you are saying Jews who criticize Israel come from very diverse backgrounds. Some have left leanings, some are libertarians, some are religious, some are not, some are Israeli citizens and some are not. Some are old and some are young. The only thing that unites them is a sense of right and wrong. They feel moral outrage at Israel's crimes. And contrary to Israel's apologists, they put morality above loyalty to one's ethnic group.Jews who criticize Israel are not villains, they are heroes. They are men and women who at great risk to their wellbeing have the moral courage to take a stand against oppression. And most of them pay a high personal price for their courage. Norman Finkelstein was fired from his job at De Paul University, Ilan Pappe and Avi Shlaim went into exile while hypocrites and liars like Alan Dershowitz hold great positions at prestigious universites. Those who still hold teaching positions have Campus Watch (http://www.campus-watch.org/) breathing down their necks. Opposing Israel is not a lucrative business it's actually quite costly.

We Austrians know something about sticking to principle at great personal cost. We have as example heroes like Mises, Rothbard and Hayek.

JB linked to the Naturei Karta website. I'd like to know if he agrees with them about their bizarre beliefs on Hitler, or whether Hasidic Jews of a rival persuasion deserved to be murdered in Mumbai (as they also claimed: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/12/neturei-karta-a.html). If he doesn't, I would like him to admit the NK website is in fact a hate-site.

I have no opinion on NK. I just said they are a group of religious Jews who oppose Zionism on religious grounds.

It’s clear that there are two competing interpretation of criticism of Israel:

The Zionist interpretation is that gentile critics of Israel are motivated by a hatred of Jews while Jewish critics are motivated by self-loathing. Israel can do no wrong. Israelis are the underdog, Palestinians are the oppressors etc. Former Israeli prime minister Golda Meir summarised it well when she reportedly told former egyptian president Sadat: "We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours"

The principled interpretation is that Israel is guilty of crimes against the Palestinians (murder, dispossession, discrimination and other forms of mistreatment). It's Israel's action that draw criticism, Israel is criticised because of what Israel does.

While Zionists may still be convinced by their own propaganda I don’t think they can convince others any longer. And the reason for that is simple:

The same moral compass that brought many to reject fascism, when applied to Israel brings the same conclusions. Israel is a brutal occupier of Palestinian lands, it is guilty of state terrorism, murder and theft. It’s no wonder then that when most decent people (from Ghandi to Nelson Mandela) become aware of the reality of the Israeli occupation they are appalled by it.

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

thesystemworks — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 11:55:56 GMT

JB:

Now that you explained to us the real reasons behing gentile criticism of Israel, I think you need to explain the reason behind Jewish criticism of Israel.

I dealt with this tired argument recently here: http://thesystemworks.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/idiots-not-included/

I'll excerpt (keep in mind I write from the UK, so I use examples more relevant to this side of the pond):

Israel’s enemies love finding Jews who agree with their opinions... Pathetically, they claim that because a certain Jew agrees with them, they must be right on the issue of the Jewish state. This is despite the fact that the vast majority of Jews are supportive of Israel, so they will always be ‘out-Jewed’ in every dispute. As well as that, many of the anti-Zionist Jews are loathed by the rest of the community, and most often they are alienated from their background. Sometimes, they are even completely hostile to anything Jewish. Personally, I would love it if friends of Israel copied our enemies behavior for a while, which would surely drive them up the wall (SEE! This JEWISH lawyer Dershowitz agrees with ME!).

The tactic is often used to deflect charges of anti-Semitism. I counter that by using Ireland as an example. If I constantly preached to Irish people that there is no justification for Irish independence and their should be one state in the British Isles, many Irish would dub me as a racist or imperialist. The fact that there are Irish unionists in the Republic of Ireland is simply not a proper argument for the merits of the idea itself.

Opposition to Zionism in the Jewish community comes broadly in two forms. Firstly, there are Jews who happen to be on the far-left, such as Communist Tony Greenstein in the UK, Marxist Shlomo Sand in Israel and post-modernist psycho-babbler Jacqueline Rose at Queen Mary. These people hate Israel for the same reasons their non-Jewish counterparts do (such as Alexander Cockburn, George Galloway or Richard Boyd-Barrett), and not for any particular ‘Jewish’ reason. However, some like to link (highly unconvincingly) their political agenda with their Jewish backgrounds. In comparison, Leon Trotsky should be admired for his honesty on claiming his Jewishness by birth gave him no special insight to matters Jewish. ‘I am a social democrat’ he once declared ‘and that’s all’. An excellent analysis of many of these people can be found HERE and HERE, from English lawyer Anthony Julius.

The other strand comes from elements of the Haredi community, most notably from the tiny, extremist and bizarre Naturei Karta, but also the Satmar Hasidim. They base their opposition to Zionism on a midrash (a kind of exegesis) in the Talmud based on the Song of Songs. That debate I will not go into, but the link provided has an overview. One should also consider that the way the very secular early fathers of Zionism attacked religion and traditional Jewish ideas left a bitter legacy and distrust that may not have healed yet. Some Haredim do not call themselves Zionist, but would be considered pro-Israel by any standard. The supposedly anti-Zionist Haredi paper Yated in Israel occasionally features editorials attacking the secular government, but is hawkish when it comes to Iran and Hamas and does not at all wish for the end of Israel’s existence. Naturei Karta themselves are insignificant, and would be completely unknown if it were not for the media in Islamic countries giving them prominent airtime, and anti-Zionist groups like RESPECT and HAMAS inviting them to become their Jewish fig leaves. They also happen to be nuts. Their website recycles the anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic canard that Hitler offered to let all the Jews of Europe leave through Spain if they did not go to the British Mandate of Palestine, but backed down because Ben Gurion opposed it. Like secular Jewish anti-Zionists, the wider public exaggerate their importance as the leftist and Islamic media give them a platform that does not reflect their numbers or influence.

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

Merlin — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 07:13:21 GMT

Tartan Pimpernel:

At the heart of anti-Semitism is resentment of Jewish achievement.

I tend to agree with this one. I see no other reason why a handfull of country-less folks, no more threatening than gyspsies, should be singled ut as much as jews have been.

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

JB Say — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 01:19:42 GMT

I am not denying Israel's economic and technological achievements, I just wish they were accomplished without massive US foreign aid coming from extorting US taxpayers.

US Congressional Report on Us foreign aid to Israel 2010

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Excerpts

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II.

Since 1985, the United States has provided nearly $3 billion in grants

annually to Israel.

Almost all U.S. bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance. In the past, Israel also

had received significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted

in Israel’s receiving benefits not available to other countries.

Israel can use some U.S. military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military

purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. foreign assistance earmarked for Israel

is delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year. Most other recipients normally receive aid in

installments. Congress also appropriates funds for joint U.S.-Israeli missile defense programs.

In August 2007, the Bush Administration announced that it would increase U.S. military

assistance to Israel by $6 billion over the next decade.

For FY2011, the Obama Administration requested $3 billion in FMF to Israel. According to the

State Department’s FY2011 budget justification for Foreign Operations, “U.S. assistance will help

ensure that Israel maintains its qualitative military edge over potential threats, and prevent a shift

in the security balance of the region. U.S. assistance is also aimed at ensuring for Israel the

security it requires to make concessions necessary for comprehensive regional peace.”

After years of negotiation, the United States and Israel announced in August 2010 that Israel will

purchase 20 F-35s at a cost of $2.75 billion, which will be paid for entirely with FMF grants.

U.S. military aid has helped transform Israel’s armed forces into one of the most technologically

sophisticated militaries in the world.U.S. military aid for Israel has been designed to maintain

Israel’s “qualitative military edge” (QME) over neighboring militaries, since Israel must rely on

better equipment and training to compensate for a manpower deficit in any potential regional

conflict. U.S. military aid, a portion of which may be spent on procurement from Israeli defense

companies, also has helped Israel build a domestic defense industry, which ranks as one of the top

10 suppliers of arms worldwide.

For many years, U.S. economic aid helped subsidize a lackluster Israeli economy, though since

the rapid expansion of Israel’s hi-tech sector in the 1990s (sparked partially by U.S.-Israeli

scientific cooperation), Israel is now considered a fully industrialized nation with an economy on

par with some Western European countries.

Beginning in 1973, Israel has received grants from the State Department’s Migration and Refugee

Assistance fund (MRA)52 to assist in the resettlement of migrants to Israel.

Since 1972, the United States has extended loan guarantees to Israel to assist with housing

shortages, Israel’s absorption of new immigrants from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia, and

its economic recovery following the 2000-2003 recessionsparked by renewed Palestinian

uprising. Loan guarantees are a form of indirect U.S. assistance to Israel, since they enable Israel

to borrow from commercial sources at lower rates and not from the United States government.

Congress directs that subsidies be set aside in a U.S. Treasury account for possible default.

In 2003, then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon requested an additional $8 billion in loan guarantees to

help Israel’s failing economy. The loan guarantee request accompanied a request for an additional

$4 billion in military grants to help Israel prepare for possible attacks during an anticipated U.S.

war with Iraq and Israeli efforts to end the Palestinian uprising. P.L. 108-11, the FY2003

Emergency Wartime Supplemental Appropriations Act, authorized $9 billion in loan guarantees

over three years for Israel’s economic recovery and $1 billion in military grants.

In the early 1970s, Israeli academics and businessmen began looking for ways to expand

investment in Israel’s high technology sector. At the time, Israel’s nascent technology sector,

which would later become the driving force in Israel’s economy, was in need of private capital for

research and development. The United States and Israel launched several programs to stimulate

Israeli industrial and scientific research, and Congress has on several occasions authorized and

appropriated funds for the following organizations:

The BIRD Foundation (Israel-U.S. Binational Research & Development

Foundation).57 BIRD, which was established in 1977, provides matchmaking

services between Israeli and American companies in research and development

with the goal of expanding cooperation between U.S. and Israeli private high tech

industries.

The BSF Foundation (U.S.-Israel Binational Science Foundation).58 BSF, which

was started in 1972, promotes cooperation in scientific and technological

research.

The BARD Foundation (Binational Agriculture and Research and Development

Fund). BARD was created in 1978 and supports U.S.-Israeli cooperation in

agricultural research.

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

JB Say — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 00:56:19 GMT

From the article Tartan linked to:

http://www.american.com/archive/2009/july/capitalism-jewish-achievement-and-the-israel-test

Some excerpts:

"Israel, like the Jews throughout history, is hated not for her vices but her virtues. Israel is hated, as the United States is hated, because Israel is successful, because Israel is free, and because Israel is good."

“Whatever nonsense the anti-Semites may talk, they dislike the Jew only because he is obviously better, more adroit, and more capable of work than they are.” Whether driven by culture or genes—or like most behavior, an inextricable mix—the fact of Jewish genius is demonstrable.

The Jewish mean intelligence quotient is 110, ten points above the norm.

The proportion of Jews with IQs of 140 or higher is somewhere around six times the proportion of everyone else” and rises at still higher IQs.

Judaism, perhaps more than any other religion, favors capitalist activity and provides a rigorous moral framework for it.

The success or failure of Jews in a given country is the best index of its freedoms. In any free society, Jews will tend to be represented disproportionately in the highest ranks of both its culture and its commerce. Americans should celebrate the triumphs of Jews on our shores as evidence of the superior freedoms of the U.S. economy and culture.

The real case for Israel is as the leader of human civilization, technological progress, and scientific advance.

Israel is the pivot, the axis, the litmus, the trial. Are you for civilization or barbarism, life or death, wealth or envy? Are you an exponent of excellence and accomplishment or of a leveling creed of frenzy and hatred?"

The main points of the article:

Jews are superior to other races

Judaism is superior to other religions

Israel is the world’s most civilized country

Critics of Israel are anti-semites and they are jealous of Jews

Israel does nothing wrong.

No comment

Now that you explained to us the real reasons behind gentile criticism of Israel, I think you need to explain the reason behind Jewish criticism of Israel. Jealousy could not be the reason in this case.

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

Tartan Pimpernel — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 00:26:51 GMT

James, I'd suggest you read "The Israel Test" by George Gilder to see how the hatred of Israel we so often come across is related not to the conflict, but due to traditional socialist envy of Israel's superior market economy and property rights system in the face of Arab countries which have none of that.

"Like the Jews throughout history, Israel poses a test to the world. In particular, it is a test for any people that lusts for the fruits of capitalism without submitting to capitalism’s imperious moral code. Because capitalism, like the biblical faith from which it largely arises, remorselessly condemns to darkness and death those who resent the achievements of others. At the heart of anti-Semitism is resentment of Jewish achievement. Today that achievement is concentrated in Israel. Obscured by the usual media coverage of the “war-torn” Middle East, Israel has become one of the most important economies in the world, second only to the United States in its pioneering of technologies benefitting human life, prosperity, and peace."

http://www.american.com/archive/2009/july/capitalism-jewish-achievement-and-the-israel-test

You can buy the book here - http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Test-George-Gilder/dp/0980076358/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1248707396&sr=8-1

Some reviews...

"After the 6-day war of 1967 Israelis started settling in the Territories, establishing an infrastructure of education, electricity, water & medical care. During Israeli rule, the economy in these areas surged by about 25% annually; growth surpassed that of Israel itself which was still shackled by statist thought. Palestinian life expectancy increased significantly as did their numbers, while the median income tripled. All of this came to a halt when the West and the United Nations forced the return of Arafat and his terrorists. The Palestinian Authority became the globe's prime per capita consumer of foreign aid as billions of dollars were squandered on maintaining a culture of corruption, blame, victimhood and dependency."

"In Part Two, Israel Inside, Gilder introduces us to Jewish and Israel scientists and entrepreneurs who have had a profound influence on the world as we know it and a few, who he believes, are about to have even great influence. Intel's latest microprocessors, they are coming from Israel; Petaflop networking, from Israel; Wireless high-definition interface standards, from Israel; Algorithms which map the human genome, Israel."

Some facts to counter the lie that Israel is unproductive or has not contributed to humanity:

Israel has ~140 scientists and engineers per 10,000 of population, nearly twice as many as the US, and more than twice as many as Japan.
Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation - 109 per 10,000 people.
The percentage of Israeli citizens who are university graduates is among the highest in the world.
Israel is second only to the US in the number of patent applications filed.
Israel has more than 140 companies listed on NASDAQ - only the U.S. has more.
The Stent was invented in Israel.
It is estimated that some 15% of all communications equipment sold around the world comes from Israel.
The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.
Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel.
Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer
Israel's Given-Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, cancer and digestive disorders.
The Firewall was invented in Israel
Drip Irrigation was invented in Israel
ICQ was invented in Israel
Both of the leading drugs used to treat MS patients, beta-interferon and copaxone, were invented in Israel.
Voice over IP was invented in Israel

A video detailing the impossibility of boycotting Israel due to its profound influence on the global economy - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbIQto3KPUM

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

James — Mon, 20 Jun 2011 04:24:22 GMT

Everyone who uses word imperialism forgets one thing: what was it that permitted these countries to be dominated by the West? The fact that they were not industrialized.

You're not trying to justify an incidence of aggression by pointing out how vulnerable, pathetic or puerile the victims appeared to the aggressor, are you?

Would you say that the only thing that permitted the Holocaust was the fact that Jews and other "non-persons" were too weak to resist? Do you think people deserve to be blamed for finding themselves impotent in the face of aggression by a powerful enemy? Do you think the aggressor should be forgiven if their enemy is weak and unable to resist? I am against all aggression on principle, obviously, but I also think that it is worse for the strong to attack the weak than for someone to pick a fight with an enemy their own size.

Israel is a highly militarised police state sustained by foreign aid. Stop pretending that it's a victim, or that it's doing anything to protect gainful human productivity. If the Israeli economy is so great, being imbued with the magical esoteric power of "Western Civilisation", why can the Israeli state not pay its own bills? Why are American people being forced to pay for a zionist social engineering experiment in the Levant?

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

auctionguy10 — Mon, 20 Jun 2011 02:07:12 GMT

There is no use for a bogeyman of imperialism and occupation- its consequences are very real. I don't recall Korea or Japan being powerhouses of consumer goods while their people were under war and duress- only after it ended. There's a lot more barriers to a functioning market in Gaza than South Korea, Taiwan, or Japan and this story about how they're in the state they're in because they're all Marxists spits in their face. Border closings, checkpoints, curfews, sieges- are these instituted to help the Palestinian marketplace?

Bulldozing hundreds of houses is the fault of Palestinians for not accepting western industrialization? This is a ghost of an argument. How am I marginalizing the success of non-western industrial countries? You are picturing a very different Gaza than the one that exists by even comparing it to those asian nations.

Markets aren't the creation of western civilization. The philosophy that most of the western world has been looking to export in recent history that the Palestinians even adopted(to obvious failure in improving anyone's standard of living) has been democratic government and redistribution of wealth. Not strict adherence to markets.

Again you paint the story in a biased way yourself- as if the average people are upset only because their brothers were slain in aggression against Israel- and not because of Israeli aggression against plain old farmers who get shot at by roaming IDF soldiers. You're creating phantom arguments in the minds of Palestinians.

Business is not possible to do because Israel has a direct hand in preventing it with military threat. They have always been engaging in business as much as they can- you can ignore the proof all you want for your representation of Palestinian psychology but I'm not buying it. They're also heavily involved with trade with Israelis despite IDF brutality and attempts to limit it- I don't know what you are talking about.

Well reading over these posts what is actually bothering me(and something I've been doing myself) is this pretend game to know what philosophy all Palestinians are living by and giving some psychobabble excuse for their condition. If we can only go by the actions we see- I'd say that I see the majority of Palestinians attempting to engage in trade and work, being choked off and killed in everyway possible- then retaliating against innocent Israeli's that had nothing to do with the initial aggression and consequently being put under even heavier sieges.

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

thelion — Mon, 20 Jun 2011 01:09:04 GMT

You are talking about symptoms, and in a biased way at that.

You are ignoring whole history of that area, and marginalizing experience of virtually every succesful non-western industrial country.

You are, basically, talking about everything except causes of non-prosperity of that region, i.e., pre-1950.

Of course IDF countrols that area, today, when most people are basically squatters at this point, whose sympathies turn more and more to radicals the more "their brothers" are defeated in combat, despite "their brothers" always having advantage of surprise. Bandits make transaction costs high, and people who want to trade big with outside world are not argued with--they are killed. Aid allows people to survive, since business is not possible to do when "brothers" will attack you if you trade with israel.

There is fiction and pleasantries, and then there is reality.

Read Carlo Cipolla's Guns, Sails, and Empires, if you want to know how technological incompetance had actually begun already 500+ years ago, just as West, was beginning to industrialize.

Read Ecological View of History: Japanese Civilization in World Context by Tadao Umesao.

Compare and contrast. No bogeyman of "imperialism" is any excuse. It is recent invention to make people feel better.

Averroes, greatest Arab philosopher ever, and probably one of my favourite philosophers, was praised and read in Europe, while ridiculed and attacked in the Islamic world. He began the rationalist philosophy that culminated in Leibniz and Kant and Hume and Condillac and Galileo and Descartes.

Rejection of his thought marked start of decline of majority of Arab countries and they have not yet recovered; for they still reject his approach, which is more or less that of Western civilization.

Re: Zionism and Libertarians

auctionguy10 — Mon, 20 Jun 2011 00:38:44 GMT

Guns certainly are important in a high crime area, its how you protect your property and your life. Its not only used to transport weaponry. Construction materials, medicine, horses, livestock, car parts, everything is transported in those tunnels. Why tell less than half the story? It is THE only way to bring goods in and out. http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1931308_1969746,00.html These aren't a people that hate trade. Arab culture has always been a merchant culture if that's what you want to refer to - despite the actions of their states.

I don't understand demonizing those that weren't able to fight back against imperialists- other than simple hatred for people who are happy with less than you are. Bringers of war and destruction are the evil's of this world- not victims who were ill-prepared. To compare japan or south korea with same situation in Palestine is beyond mindless- I really don't see how you can make those comparisons without simply seeking some way for your argument to hold water. How could South Korea possibly be compared to Gaza? Its not economically blockaded- its people aren't occupied in the way the west bank and Gaza strip are- and I didn't realize Gaza was receiving huge amounts of capital for infrastructure projects from foreigners the way South Korea was after the korean war.

IDF controls the lives of palestinians. They will continue to bleed them to death until they fully submit to being recognized as subhuman. Even if I were to accept that Israel didn't start hostilities- why should the palestinians alive today continue to suffer for the mistakes of the arabs of the past?

Iraq didn't declare war on the US- they were attacked first, with areas like fallujah completely decimated with the use of weapons like white phosphorous. From what you say it would be perfectly fine if they had the military power to defend themselves and completely subjugate the United States and dominated until all Americans submitted to being peaceful instead of being so backwards and intent on genocide.(as laughable as that scenario is).

Of course absolutely and undeniably rockets and suicide bombs do nothing but make freedom for palestinians worse. I can put the people who engage in such actions against civilians to be on the same level as the IDF. But to say that all palestinians deserve what they get because they value "Honor" over trade is a powerful lie.