General

Re: General pro-school arguments

fakename — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:29:58 GMT

Caley McKibbin:
Frederick II disagrees.

and he was an "enlightenment" king -friends with Voltaire apparently.

A lot of the enlightenment philosophies stunk to be sure.

Re: General pro-school arguments

Caley McKibbin — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 03:10:38 GMT

Subdivisions:

There is no reason why anyone should be barred from doing similarly, or at least attempting it; there is no reason for a compulsory monopoly on education.

Frederick II disagrees.

Re: General pro-school arguments

Subdivisions — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 03:05:50 GMT

Absolutely! As long as it is his own choice - then no problem. I'm a musician equally as much as I am a philosophic/historic/whatever type. Hopefully one day I'll be able to make my living from music but also be taken seriously as a writer. There is no reason why anyone should be barred from doing similarly, or at least attempting it; there is no reason for a compulsory monopoly on education.

Re: General pro-school arguments

Torsten — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:25:37 GMT

Subdivisions:
I advocate apprenticeships to replace most of what state-monopolized schooling does (badly) now. This saves on red tape, and gives students a better sense of what they are learning - what they can accomplish with their skills, allowing them to specialize more easily. What does a welder give a damn for the history of medieval Iceland or the names and philosophies depicted in Raphael's School of Athens? It isn't going to enrich his life any if he's forced by gunpoint to learn that kind of stuff, and it's only going to marginally increase his happiness if he's forced to learn something he's interested in, like welding. With the advent of free information and the internet, school is largely useless anyway, private or public.

He may care, but wouldn't this be his own choice and liking to attend a class about it? You got it right that the state-monopoly on schooling should be attacked and that the system actually kills true learning.

Re: General pro-school arguments

Novus Zarathustra — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:06:49 GMT

Laughing Man:

Democracy for Breakfast:
I am in remedial math, public speaking, and entry level english. all the classes are boring as hell, and a waste of time.

Well if you are in college, why did you choose these? Or are they general ed requirements?

Gen. Requirements. I flunked the Math portion of my placement test, while I did fairly well in English, I still have to take the beginning English course for College. I honestly didn't want to chose those, but its a very slow process to get into any interesting classes. Hell, because of my College, I can't take an independent study next semester like I had wanted to so that I could learn Japanese or Norwegian. Instead I might have to settle down for something like Spanish, just so I can meet the language requirement in two years.

I have to take certain classes, because only certain ones transfer into the University, and I can't take anything like Drawing or Painting, only Art History.

Re: General pro-school arguments

Subdivisions — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:53:10 GMT

I myself went through public schooling. Luckily, I figured out how to make straight C's in all my classes with minimal work. The rest of the time I just worked on what I wanted to work on. I still made it out of high school with 15 hours of college credit from my advanced placement classes. The whole thing is both intellectually and morally bankrupt. It kills the passion for learning. Most of the people that I've met who've become interested in bettering their minds have come to this conclusion from some experience outside of school, or as a reactionary attack on the institutionalized style of the classes.

I wanted to attack many of the theories propounded in school. In our econ AP class, I and another very philosophically minded friend frustrated a teacher into giving up. He spent the next 6 weeks making paper clip chains and staring off into space while we taught ourselves economics and played monopoly. We passed our final, of course. Oh those were the days... Anyway, my point is that mandatory, coercive placement into the socialist indoctrination camps (yes, that's what they are) leads to frustration and resentment across the board, not to mention "eduflation". Just wait until this bubble bursts. Eventually it will have to - you'll have janitors with phd's in psychology all over the place - and I just can't imagine that can continue to that point. Not everyone is made to be a philosopher or a doctor or an engineer. Some people just want to work and take care of themselves, start families, have fun, etc.

I advocate apprenticeships to replace most of what state-monopolized schooling does (badly) now. This saves on red tape, and gives students a better sense of what they are learning - what they can accomplish with their skills, allowing them to specialize more easily. What does a welder give a damn for the history of medieval Iceland or the names and philosophies depicted in Raphael's School of Athens? It isn't going to enrich his life any if he's forced by gunpoint to learn that kind of stuff, and it's only going to marginally increase his happiness if he's forced to learn something he's interested in, like welding. With the advent of free information and the internet, school is largely useless anyway, private or public.

I saw it brought up that motivation is a factor, that children won't learn on their own. This is laughable, not because it isn't true to some extent, but because it isn't relevant! Forcing someone into an institution beleaguered with bullies, fools, and a mixed bag of teachers ranging from the truly good (only a couple the whole 15 years I was in school) to the deranged or stupid (a much more common variety, I am sad to say) or even abusive isn't going to spark the grand spark in the mind which makes higher education a firm goal in the mind of the individual student. Every once in a while, it does happen. But by and large this is a rather silly argument. Sloth begets sloth, not work ethic, especially in a socially enforced setting.

My own lust for knowledge and truth began when I read three books: The Lord of the Rings, A Wrinkle in Time, and The Giver. I didn't read any of them in school. I read them when I was a child, of my own choice, because it was part of the environment in which I was raised - at home, with my parents. Video games actually played a part in my intellectual development and drive to know more. Games like Final Fantasy 3 and Chrono Trigger got me asking sociological questions even at a young age, and inspired me to do something good with my one life. Groups like Rush taught me the joy of music - I play several instruments pretty well now and have a decent grasp of music theory. The point of all this is to show that we are learning all the time! None of these things have anything to do with school, which did little but slow me down. Institutionalized schooling is a dangerous, destructive waste of time. I'd rather kids be playing xbox and growing up to be nobodies, than having them go through 20 years of school to be nobodies - and then voting to continue the dissolution of society because of indoctrination.

Sorry for the length of the post.

Re: General pro-school arguments

Marko — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:36:02 GMT

MatthewF:

I also hated going to school at that age. Maybe for different reasons...

My little brother and I were reading fairly well and working on multiplication by the time I entered Kindergarten. I remember being very frustrated the first few years in school because I was forced to "learn" ABC's and basic addition & subtraction which I already knew how to do.

By late Elementary school and Jr. High I had given up on doing homework and would simply do the in class work and tests to keep my grades at average level. I didn't understand why I needed to do homework if I could learn the material by reading the textbook and practicing a few times in class.

I think at this point in my life I should have gotten a job. Maybe I would have learned the value of following rules and managing money. I think the independence and responsibility would have been a huge boost to my character.

By the time I was in High school I had completely checked out. I skipped classes, ignored homework, and rebelled against what I was being taught when I did attend; especially in history, social studies, and economics classes.

My first job saved me and restored my confidence in my ability to learn and grow. Funny thing is the whole time I was "failing" or barely passing in school, I was reading about physics, politics, history, persuasion, economics, and a host of other things that most of my school aged friends never got a grasp on.

I bet this type of story is much more common than we would imagine. Government schools suck!

Amen, bro. Reads similar to my story.

The only good thing about regular school is you make some damn good friendships. But I`m sure you make some friends for life in prison too, but few will recommend you do some jail time for your socialisation.

Re: General pro-school arguments

Andrew Cain — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:26:39 GMT

Democracy for Breakfast:
I am in remedial math, public speaking, and entry level english. all the classes are boring as hell, and a waste of time.

Well if you are in college, why did you choose these? Or are they general ed requirements?

Re: General pro-school arguments

Novus Zarathustra — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:33:34 GMT

Wanderer:

There's nothing wrong with schools. They just shouldn't be run in a monopolistic fashion, and parents should have choice where to send their kids or to homeschool them.

I think I might drop out once I decide what I want to do. However, College is a great place to indulge in information and learning. College libraries often have a diverse database of information. On that contrary, the Gen. Ed classes KILL IT for me. I am in remedial math, public speaking, and entry level english. all the classes are boring as hell, and a waste of time.

However, what do you guys think about Independent Studies in College? I think they are a great way to learn because cirriculum's suck. After doing more research, I agree with you guys that a Degree is worthless, however I feel a little helpless without the guidance of a College, and the people you meet at one.

Re: General pro-school arguments

Sphairon — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:54:36 GMT

Saan:

D's in highschool, college dropout, I have already made more money than you will 15 years after you graduate statistically speaking.(see gary north's website.) I can't link you to the specifics as you have to pay.

Hello, Sir!

I'm also a subscriber of Dr. North's and I'd like to know more about the resources that you found particularly helpful in building your fortune. So, if you could provide a direct link to this specific information, I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks!

Re: General pro-school arguments

wilderness — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:47:10 GMT

Democracy for Breakfast:

Well, the sex and violence is because of a lack of rules and control in the school. How can any Libertarian favor a set of strict rules in an institution?

property rights, property rights, property rights...

I brought this up before to you in this thread on the previous page and it has come up again. Who's property is it? (in the previous case, i had asked about you letting a boss or manager know about the situation - the property owner).

Re: General pro-school arguments

Novus Zarathustra — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:01:20 GMT

Amadeus:

Exactly. I'm 15, and not less then 1 or 2 years ago, I was in a public school. There was sex and violence. It was all to distracting, and I didn't learn anything. In-fact, close to nothing. I leave and get home schooled. I start learning at a rate 10x faster compared to public. And I started to find an interest in economics surprisingly. I never liked any subject, and I mean any. I am learning things that I wouldn't have learned for at least 4+ years in public school (in-fact, probably never would have learned of Austrian economics.)

It's funny. When ever I debate a socialist on schools, they tell me that I went to a poor public school. I actually went to a wealthy one.

Well, the sex and violence is because of a lack of rules and control in the school. How can any Libertarian favor a set of strict rules in an institution?

Re: General pro-school arguments

Caley McKibbin — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:47:16 GMT

Amadeus:

probably never would have learned of Austrian economics.)

There is no "probably" about it.

Re: General pro-school arguments

Amadeus — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:26:58 GMT

Exactly. I'm 15, and not less then 1 or 2 years ago, I was in a public school. There was sex and violence. It was all to distracting, and I didn't learn anything. In-fact, close to nothing. I leave and get home schooled. I start learning at a rate 10x faster compared to public. And I started to find an interest in economics surprisingly. I never liked any subject, and I mean any. I am learning things that I wouldn't have learned for at least 4+ years in public school (in-fact, probably never would have learned of Austrian economics.)

It's funny. When ever I debate a socialist on schools, they tell me that I went to a poor public school. I actually went to a wealthy one.

Re: General pro-school arguments

Novus Zarathustra — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:43:37 GMT

filc:

Democracy for Breakfast:

How can I get a career in science and research on my own? Is school necessary to develop that knowledge to where I could eventually get jobs in fields of science?

Whats stopping you from participating in the sciences right now? Einstein didn't learn his theory of general relativity. He discovered it by his own merits. There is no one stopping you from doing the same or similar work.

Now if you want to be a member of "Academia" well that may be different. Still there are ways of getting into that as well.

Meh, I don't think I'll develop my own theory. If I were interesting a job in something like Materials/Chemist scientist, where could I start to get the attention of Business' and find work? Without a College degree.