General

Re: Spreading the good word

kingmonkey — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:15:09 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:

Seeing that there is no free place left in the world where I could move to, I am left only with two options. To move outside of society to become a hermit, or try to affect change to society. But how does one even begin the latter path?

To affect social change you simply have to go out there and do it. I'm currently working on building a libertarian community right here in my home county. There are plenty of people I know from my community and I'm trying to pull them all together and see if we can affect some kind of change right here in Hood County, Texas. I plan on running for city mayor in 2010 or maybe even a county commissioner seat which is why I'm trying to build up a small group of friends who will help support me.

I am also working on a small booklet that I want to self-publish that very quickly and concisely explains libertarian philosophy which I plan to freely distribute to the community. There is also a small underground newspaper that has recently started up which I plan on writing some articles for which hopefully will have some impact on people here.

In order to effect social change you just have to do it. Run for public office, talk to people on the streets, start a libertarian Meet Up group in your community, etc. Connect with others in the area and start preaching the message.

Re: Spreading the good word

Spideynw — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:43:43 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:

Seeing that there is no free place left in the world where I could move to, I am left only with two options. To move outside of society to become a hermit, or try to affect change to society. But how does one even begin the latter path?

Start trying to influence the people that make the decisions. In other words, start attending your local city meetings.

The other thing to do is to actually run for office. I read somewhere, and have to agree, that libertarians need to stop trying to grab the top spots, and go for the second place spots. In other words, we need to start running for the legislative offices. Run for a council position, your state legislature, or for Congress. Do not try to run for Mayor, Governor, or President.

Re: Spreading the good word

MacFall — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:51:16 GMT

BWF89:

In a completely free market the corporation as we know it (a legal person) wouldn't exist. Corporations are sole proprietorships or partnerships which apply to the state for certain privledges they wouldn't naturally have.

Companies owned by stockholders will still exist in the free market, they will probably still be called "corporations", and their ability to pool capital and risk will still give them an advantage. Though an advantage no-where near of the same magnitude as that which they have by state privilege, of course.

Re: Spreading the good word

Sage — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:47:28 GMT

Ego: This is a case of tort law. Because there was no contract and they committed a crime, the company's limited liability is not applicable. Thus, they can be sued beyond their assets.

Re: Spreading the good word

Ego — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 06:06:29 GMT

What if the corporation does damage to someone with whom they didn't have a contract?

For example: Let's say there is a lovely corporation called Mr. Keynes' Demolition (MKD). It has been called upon to break by Associated Steel to break all of its headquaters' windows. While MKD is breaking those windows, its wrecking ball accidentally hits Ayers Music Publishing only store and collapses the entire building.

Mr. Keynes is a wealthy man, but MKD has limited assets. What should happen?

Re: Spreading the good word

BWF89 — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 04:09:10 GMT

Sage:
But they don't have to be. I can set up a business and make all my customers and associates sign a contract saying that they will give me limited liability. Same with legal personhood. They can both exist in a free society, if they are organized by voluntary contracts.

With limited liability, the customer, by entering a store, agrees not to sue for more than the store's assets.

Like I said before, I can make even more extreme business structures. For example, I can say that all my customers have to pay ME just to do business with me. In the end, this is just a question of contracts and whether everyone who interacts with a corporation will agree to the contract.

On property: The corporation is just a collective of individuals. So, it would be the individuals who own the property in common, not an artificial entity.

I've never throught of that. I guess aslong as it wasn't enforced by a state and was completely voluntary I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Re: Spreading the good word

Sage — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:21:06 GMT

BWF89:

Limited liability and legal personhood is a special privledge granted by the state.

But they don't have to be. I can set up a business and make all my customers and associates sign a contract saying that they will give me limited liability. Same with legal personhood. They can both exist in a free society, if they are organized by voluntary contracts.

With limited liability, the customer, by entering a store, agrees not to sue for more than the store's assets.

Like I said before, I can make even more extreme business structures. For example, I can say that all my customers have to pay ME just to do business with me. In the end, this is just a question of contracts and whether everyone who interacts with a corporation will agree to the contract.

On property: The corporation is just a collective of individuals. So, it would be the individuals who own the property in common, not an artificial entity.

Re: Spreading the good word

Libertas est Veritas — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:34:49 GMT

JAlanKatz:
She doesn't even get the question, she has this picture of bloodless laws, where you pass the law and it just gets obeyed

That is a common disconnect. It gets very frustrating, since most statist claim to be non-coercive, but still propose coercion. My best bet on why the disconnect occurs is that these people think in terms of perfect control; that reality will conform to their views of it.

Re: Spreading the good word

BWF89 — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:17:57 GMT

Sage:
Certainly corporations would not get special priviledges from the government in a free society. But how come they couldn't have legal personhood or limited liability? The way I see it, all they're doing is establishing a contract with their customers and business parters that says they cannot be sued for more than their assets, they can act as a legal person in contracts and lawsuits, and so on.

Limited liability and legal personhood is a special privledge granted by the state. Bill Gates is a person, Bill Gates can make decisions, and Bill Gates can own property. But Microsoft isn't a real person so why should Microsoft be treated as if it was a person? How can an artificial entity own property or make a decision? That would be like saying an animal could own property?

Re: Spreading the good word

Ego — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:36:26 GMT

Don't let her get away with that! Ask her what happens "if I don't pay taxes"?

Re: Spreading the good word

JAlanKatz — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:58:22 GMT

As far as I can tell, there has to be a "click." I once felt a click, or pop, and ever since then, even have trouble discussing politics with someone who hasn't felt it. They really just don't see that government is force - that's the hurdle to get past. Here's an example. I happen to know a very bright, young socialist who calls herself a pacifist. Now, maybe she holds some sort of socialism which doesn't advocate the use of force, but in discussions, she certainly favors, at present, taxes, welfare, regulation, and gun laws. I have tried to raise the question of just how you can hold such positions and be opposed to the use of violence. She doesn't even get the question, she has this picture of bloodless laws, where you pass the law and it just gets obeyed because, well, why would anyone dislike the state? She won't connect to the question of why cops carry guns.

Re: Spreading the good word

Sage — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:40:36 GMT

BWF89:

In a completely free market the corporation as we know it (a legal person) wouldn't exist. Corporations are sole proprietorships or partnerships which apply to the state for certain privledges they wouldn't naturally have.

Certainly corporations would not get special priviledges from the government in a free society. But how come they couldn't have legal personhood or limited liability? The way I see it, all they're doing is establishing a contract with their customers and business parters that says they cannot be sued for more than their assets, they can act as a legal person in contracts and lawsuits, and so on.

In the same sense, I can set up a business where my customers must agree to never sue me for any reason. The point is, it's just a voluntary contract. My customers (in any!) are free to take their business elsewhere.

Libertas: Have you heard of agorism? Basically, it's the strategy of bringing about a free society by using the marketplace to out-compete the state.

Re: Spreading the good word

Anonymous Coward — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:36:11 GMT

Yeah, I know what you're saying.

I was listening to the public radio today and some woman was complaining about the poor in the oil rich countries. She claimed that the governments of these states weren't forging a relationship with the citizens because they didn't tax them so the common folks felt neglected by the government.

Uh, yeah, I want to be neglected by my government too...

Re: Spreading the good word

Ego — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 22:02:57 GMT

I always make arguments personal: Why do you want to force me to pay for "x"?

If they bring up some social-contract bull, I say something similar to the following:

I'm agreeing to be robbed by not leaving the country? What kind of scummish logic is that? If your immediate neighbors to you left and right decide that all three of you should contribute money towards a swimming pool, and you don't want to, should you be forced to move? Think about it.

Instead of acting out on your desire to control others, how about letting people live their own lives?

Re: Spreading the good word

BWF89 — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:53:16 GMT

Libertas est Veritas:
Everyone in Europe, and probably in increasing numbers in the US, has been brought up to a vague sense that the free market is bad and you need a government to protect everyone from marauding corporations.

In a completely free market the corporation as we know it (a legal person) wouldn't exist. Corporations are sole proprietorships or partnerships which apply to the state for certain privledges they wouldn't naturally have.

Libertas est Veritas:
Seeing that there is no free place left in the world where I could move to, I am left only with two options. To move outside of society to become a hermit, or try to affect change to society. But how does one even begin the latter path?

Have you heard of the Free State Project?