General

Re: What to do, what to do

z1235 — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 05:24:21 GMT

Blueline976:
z1235: That's a bit impractical, don't you think?. For one, I had completely forgotten about any scholarships and MCAS itself. Two, I'm never home when the mail comes. Three, I'm not about to walk up to the mailman and refuse to take certain pieces of mail.

I was just being sarcastic. Using the state's mail services all your life has already placed you beyond the point of no return regarding the conundrum that's bothering you. You've already made your decision on your question at hand long before you knew you did.

Re: What to do, what to do

Edmund Carlyle — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 04:44:14 GMT

Blueline976:

"You're against government handouts and bailouts, and now you're getting money to go to college for free."

Like most libertarians, I'm a fan of being consistent on everything, I can't help but think they're right.

I consider myself a libertarian (in a sense) but I would say quite simply that the problem with the current government and its 'policies' is that it is insane, based upon impossible nonsense and contradictory to reality and civilization. That being said, I do not believe that describing the philosophy and government of the present world as evil means that one signs some sort of suicide pact, martyrdom is idiotic; it only attracts the wrong kind of people.

Taking money from the state is no different than buying subsidized products, it's simply rational behaviour, even if one holds the opinion that such outcomes as exist derive from insane ideas and barbarianism.

Re: What to do, what to do

Nitroadict — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 04:36:46 GMT

MatthewF:

I'm way past feeling bad about using government roads and the like so I say take it. But...

I am always looking for ways to further disengage myself from the state in general. I would highly recommend doing the same.

And I wouldn't go out of my way looking for a government hand-out of any kind.

The way the state interferes with the economy & screws around with education by making it more expensive, I really don't see this as a hand-out. I see it as partial reparation. If other options are only mildly less convenient and/or available, though, it would be obviously be morally preferable.

He may not have a choice, however, as costs of education will become more burdensome as the economy worsens.

Many will be damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Re: What to do, what to do

MatthewF — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 04:21:36 GMT

I'm way past feeling bad about using government roads and the like so I say take it. But...

I am always looking for ways to further disengage myself from the state in general. I would highly recommend doing the same.

And I wouldn't go out of my way looking for a government hand-out of any kind.

Re: What to do, what to do

Nitroadict — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 04:18:40 GMT

Blueline976:

Sukrit Sabhlok:

I was thinking about that, but came to my earlier conclusion. You might be right, but my thought process is: I'm not receiving money to go to school. If I did, it would obviously come from taxes, and thus would be hypocritical of me to take the money because people would essentially be paying for me to go to school through taxes.

Rather the tuition is just waived. I thought that the school would just not get my money. If I did take money given to me, it would just go back to the state anyway. So this way, don't they just *not* get my money?

I would say actually the Agorist perspective gives you a way out on this, as if you got money from the state, you wouldn't be able to utilize for anything else but the tuition (in effect, waiving the costs for you), & the money remains in the pink / red markets.

Your own capital (most likely in pink / red market origin), however, would not contribute to this venture, & could be better spent elsewhere in areas that do not directly benefit pink / red markets, & more so grey & black-markets.

It's a bit of a technical explanation, & a bit esoteric, but it would make more sense for the state to pay for your tuition for you to go to a state college . university than for you to waste your money on it, at least from a strategic point of view.

You can always redeem yourself by leveraging the "education" you get to advance other libertarian means down the line. This then becomes a case of "picking your battles".

Re: What to do, what to do

Blueline976 — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 03:57:51 GMT

Sukrit Sabhlok:

I was thinking about that, but came to my earlier conclusion. You might be right, but my thought process is: I'm not receiving money to go to school. If I did, it would obviously come from taxes, and thus would be hypocritical of me to take the money because people would essentially be paying for me to go to school through taxes.

Rather the tuition is just waived. I thought that the school would just not get my money. If I did take money given to me, it would just go back to the state anyway. So this way, don't they just *not* get my money?

If any of that is confusing, I'll try to clarify what I mean.

z1235: That's a bit impractical, don't you think?. For one, I had completely forgotten about any scholarships and MCAS itself. Two, I'm never home when the mail comes. Three, I'm not about to walk up to the mailman and refuse to take certain pieces of mail.

Re: What to do, what to do

Sukrit — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 03:43:42 GMT

But a waiver is indirectly "free money" isn't it? Because the cost of providing you a place at a state school/university doesn't come for free - there's always an opportunity cost.

Instead of taking you onboard as a tuition-exempt student, they could've taken someone else that paid for their place which would've made them more money. So it's like you're getting free money?

Re: What to do, what to do

z1235 — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 03:42:08 GMT

Blueline976:
Today, I got a letter in the mail

Perhaps if you refused to receive it, on principle, you wouldn't be having this problem now.

Re: What to do, what to do

Blueline976 — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 03:38:45 GMT

I see. I was merely worried about being hypocritical because, as my friend stated, I'm always talking about how these handouts are terrible, blah blah blah, yet when I get one, I take it and run.

However, it turns out the scholarship is just a waiver, from what I've read so far. The letter I received was from my school principal and only said congratulations, there's an ceremony Nov. 23, etc., so it didn't really explain the scholarship in any detail.. I'm not getting anyone's tax money to go to school. If anything, it hurts the state/government public school because they won't be getting my money.

Re: What to do, what to do

Sukrit — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 03:28:11 GMT

Blueline - As others have noted, it is impractical for libertarians to relinquish government benefits because of the tremendous size and scope of government power today. We can't avoid using government roads, for example. And in any case, why should statists - who are conniving thieves - be allowed to use our own ideology and moral principles against us? We are being robbed by a criminal gang (the State) on a daily basis - why should we listen to those that defend the criminal gang?

Besides, taking government money and donating it to a pro-freedom cause would actually reduce the amount of coercion in society.

While I think it's fine for libertarians to take government money, there is always the potential for this money to corrupt their views. Like anyone else, libertarians can (in theory) be tempted to water down their anti-government views so they continue receiving taxpayer grants. Libertarian organizations should, therefore, reject government money lest they become corrupted. And individuals who receive government money should declare it to the world (as you have).

Re: What to do, what to do

Nitroadict — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:57:38 GMT

Stranger:

You have to compete with people who are getting these privileges.

+1.

If you cannot find a better opportunity elsewhere on your own, you might need to deal with state-society, however reluctantly, to compete.

At least while it's still around (this country is becoming bankrupt, in any case), methinks.

Re: What to do, what to do

nirgrahamUK — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:48:21 GMT

imho Walter is the best on this. ymmv

Re: What to do, what to do

Libertarian_for_Life — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:47:21 GMT

I don't think I could do it, it would be like one of the followers of Gandhi starting a violent rebellion.

But then again, I use government roads, went to public school, I don't know anymore...

Ideally we all would like it if no one stole any money, but then again I would also ideally like to never kill anyone, but I would if they fired at me.

I don't know, I'm having doubts now, it seems like no one can be a consistent libertarian in a state-run world, but does this mean we should take advantage of the state wherever and whenever we can? Or is this some kind of line somewhere?

Good topic.

Re: What to do, what to do

Andrew Cain — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:46:29 GMT

Waive the tuition. No point going into debt when you can avoid it especially during a time when people should be saving.

Re: What to do, what to do

Blueline976 — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:43:10 GMT

Sukrit Sabhlok, wouldn't that just be selling out for political gain?

Also, as a note, this is TUITION WAVER. I honestly don't know if it uses tax dollars to cover costs, and I'm not getting "free money" as far as I know.