General

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

maxpot46 — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:52:25 GMT

Nielsio:
IF you say that you personally are strong in logic and speaking, then that means your child has a great resource he can learn from. Demonstrate the value of those skills to your child and he will naturally want to possess them.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not taking a chance.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

maxpot46 — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:48:27 GMT

Joe:
are they? Surely there are tons of successful people in this world with very little understanding of logic and economics, at least in a formal sense.

By "success" I suppose I mean "not being an easily manipulated dumbass".

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

Nielsio — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:07:33 GMT

maxpot46:

Nielsio:
Actually, it appears you're not quite following that principle because you're using withdrawal tactics; so what I would suggest is to try to be more open and interested in his perspective of the material. "do you like this topic", "the reason I think it's important is X; does that resonate with you", etc. I think if YOU can change in the way that your child wants to learn these things, then it would be better. That may mean that he doesn't always want to learn the things you want to teach him, however if you can't sell those topics to him then what justifies you in making him do them?

As his guardian I need to prepare him for the real world in which basic understandings of logic, economics, and communication are critical to success. In addition to Dayna's videos, I also viewed a couple of clips from unschooled teens and they were pathetic logically and rhetorically, a fate I don't wish to befall my son. Aside from that basic foundation, he can do/study whatever he wants.

But living in the real world is fun and children want (!) to be able to participate naturally. So you should be able to sell those things to him without the use of withdrawal tactics. It appears to me that you're assuming he can't enjoy learning those things, which can lead to the dangerous message that learning is not fun and that children are non-participants biologically (i.e. 'bad').

The fact that other unschooled children aren't strong logically or rhetorically doesn't mean you have to force those things on children. IF you say that you personally are strong in logic and speaking, then that means your child has a great resource he can learn from. Demonstrate the value of those skills to your child and he will naturally want to possess them.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

Joe — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:02:34 GMT

maxpot46:

As his guardian I need to prepare him for the real world in which basic understandings of logic, economics, and communication are critical to success.

are they? Surely there are tons of successful people in this world with very little understanding of logic and economics, at least in a formal sense.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

maxpot46 — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:48:45 GMT

Nielsio:
Actually, it appears you're not quite following that principle because you're using withdrawal tactics; so what I would suggest is to try to be more open and interested in his perspective of the material. "do you like this topic", "the reason I think it's important is X; does that resonate with you", etc. I think if YOU can change in the way that your child wants to learn these things, then it would be better. That may mean that he doesn't always want to learn the things you want to teach him, however if you can't sell those topics to him then what justifies you in making him do them?

As his guardian I need to prepare him for the real world in which basic understandings of logic, economics, and communication are critical to success. In addition to Dayna's videos, I also viewed a couple of clips from unschooled teens and they were pathetic logically and rhetorically, a fate I don't wish to befall my son. Aside from that basic foundation, he can do/study whatever he wants.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

hayekianxyz — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:20:44 GMT

I don't know, I always sort of enjoyed school.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

BibleLibertarian — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:19:42 GMT

Exactly! In college I met many students who were homeschooled all their lives who were competent speakers and social animals. They had no problem adjusting to the environment of a university with over 4000 students.

School is not the only institution for social training, nor necessarily the primary one. Homeschooled children can be involved in many social activities, including city sports leagues, church, community service, and boy/girl scouts.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

Nielsio — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:14:51 GMT

maxpot46:

trulib:
The videos by Dayna Martin are very good.

I've spent the last couple of hours looking at her videos and I have to say I'm not very impressed and have come away thinking my approach is better. I like the content of what Dayna says as it resonates with my own thoughts on the issue, but she doesn't speak very well, doesn't structure her arguments very well, mixes metaphors, etc. I MOSTLY unschool, but do take the time to make sure my son knows those things which I consider to be absolutely critical for any thinking person. Specifically I teach him basic logic, basic mathematics, how to write well, basic economics (it's so cute when I tell him to do something and he tells me that "he owns himself". Of course, then I tell him if he doesn't then I'll withhold use of my property from him, like the computer or my comic books, which works great. But it's still darned cute ), and basic history (he knows a lot more about the Stone Age, Egypt, Greece and Rome than most high school students).

I will say that I appreciate that her videos are all ~5 minutes in length (though they could be a lot shorter if she talked better). Too many people don't understand that brevity is gold in communication.

It's very much possible that what you consider 'instruction' still falls under the underschooling principle. That is: if you can offer these things in a way that genuinely interests your child, then he's still following his natural curiosity.

So what's important here is your capability to A. make it interesting and B. to show how it relates to the real world.

Actually, it appears you're not quite following that principle because you're using withdrawal tactics; so what I would suggest is to try to be more open and interested in his perspective of the material. "do you like this topic", "the reason I think it's important is X; does that resonate with you", etc. I think if YOU can change in the way that your child wants to learn these things, then it would be better. That may mean that he doesn't always want to learn the things you want to teach him, however if you can't sell those topics to him then what justifies you in making him do them?

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

Gerald Spencer — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:59:04 GMT

I really like that. I never thought about that. I wish that I had known that before my children grew up.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

maxpot46 — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:58:34 GMT

trulib:
The videos by Dayna Martin are very good.

I've spent the last couple of hours looking at her videos and I have to say I'm not very impressed and have come away thinking my approach is better. I like the content of what Dayna says as it resonates with my own thoughts on the issue, but she doesn't speak very well, doesn't structure her arguments very well, mixes metaphors, etc. I MOSTLY unschool, but do take the time to make sure my son knows those things which I consider to be absolutely critical for any thinking person. Specifically I teach him basic logic, basic mathematics, how to write well, basic economics (it's so cute when I tell him to do something and he tells me that "he owns himself". Of course, then I tell him if he doesn't then I'll withhold use of my property from him, like the computer or my comic books, which works great. But it's still darned cute ), and basic history (he knows a lot more about the Stone Age, Egypt, Greece and Rome than most high school students).

I will say that I appreciate that her videos are all ~5 minutes in length (though they could be a lot shorter if she talked better). Too many people don't understand that brevity is gold in communication.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

maxpot46 — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:26:04 GMT

Joe:

what about unschooling? I am pretty new to the idea, but it sounds interesting, anyone have any experience with it?

What I do would be considered close to it. I spend maybe an hour a day on formal instruction and the rest of the time I just monitor what my kid is doing and maybe give him some tasks to complete. My wife was skeptical of this approach at first, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and my kid is performing at a much higher level than our neighbors (who have kids of similar ages, one the exact same age). If you think about what actually happens during the school day, there is very little formal instruction and a whole lot of "social" BS going on. We also don't have to cater to the lowest common denominator like public schools do. I whole-heartedly endorse this approach.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

maxpot46 — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:17:00 GMT

Daniel Muffinburg:
If you home school your children, how do you pay the bills? Does one parent have a job while the other home schools? I've always wondered parents have been able to finance home schooling their children.

I homeschool my 8-year old son (and will eventually homeschool my 6-month old daughter). When I worked for someone else, I just instructed in my off-hours -- we set our own schedule so when I worked days I taught at night, and when I worked nights I taught in the day. My wife and I don't yet make much money so we live frugally. I've since renounced working for other people and we've started a little tutoring business, mostly teaching English to Russian immigrants with some writing/logic/economics/philosophy/standardized-testing stuff on the side. This has greatly reduced my hours out of the house, and allowed me to bring my son to "work" with me to see how life really is.

The point is, it's really not that hard if you prioritize it and reject the schedule of the rest of society (we eat when we're hungry, sleep when we're sleepy, wake up when we feel like it, etc.). I'll never let the state sink its talons into the minds of my children.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

Stranger — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:19:47 GMT

Fephisto:

This seems like the only argument that people against homeschooling have, "They'll end up as social retards." So what do you do? Place them in a school.

Analogy:

"This guy really doesn't know how to get along with people, let's put him in prison."

Realistically, the best way to socialize children is to group them with the people who are the most socialized, the elderly. The worst way to socialize children is to group them with the people who are the least socialized, other children.

It shouldn't be a surprise that schools are dens of bullying and other savage behavior.

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

Physiocrat — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:04:08 GMT

Fephisto:

"This guy really doesn't know how to get along with people, let's put him in prison."

"applause"

Re: Homeschool vs Formal School

Fephisto — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:58:01 GMT

This seems like the only argument that people against homeschooling have, "They'll end up as social retards." So what do you do? Place them in a school.

Analogy:

"This guy really doesn't know how to get along with people, let's put him in prison."