General

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

demosthenes — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:02:26 GMT

Like I said, 5% of a city's population may secede. So all I need is a few thousand people. Are there even a few thousand? Well, the freestateproject is trying to find 20,000, which I think would be enough.

It's naive to think this will even make a dent in State power across the globe. Although I love how these attempts at social engineering will spread the word of liberty and although I would definitely participate if I had the balls, I simply refuse to believe that it would be any more consequential than, say, Ron Paul's run at the presidency in 2008. While he definitely lit a fire up under the liberty movement's ass, he also made absolutely no dent in worldwide state power.

I'm waiting for new technology that's going to make State power an anachronism. Or I'll wait for the State to destroy itself. Whichever one comes first.

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

bloomj31 — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:56:21 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

you said that you had no moral sense. might makes right. you said that it was hollow to talk about whether slavery is good or bad. (that position is nihilistic vis ethics and justice)

I never said might makes right. I said might makes possible. Which it does. I never said that I had no moral sense, but that I am often less motivated by morality than I am by personal gain. I don't even remember talking about slavery.

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

nirgrahamUK — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:54:55 GMT

you said that you had no moral sense. might makes right. you said that it was hollow to talk about whether slavery is good or bad. (that position is nihilistic vis ethics and justice)

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

bloomj31 — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:51:27 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

wow, you've come along way. good to hear

I would argue that I never felt nihilistic about property rights, I just brought up the same concerns then that I have now and got labels thrown at me that didn't make sense.

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

nirgrahamUK — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:48:52 GMT

bloomj31:
I don't feel dispassionate about justice. Nor do I feel nihilistic about the validity of property rights.

wow, you've come along way. good to hear

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

bloomj31 — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:48:08 GMT

Spideynw:

Like I said, 5% of a city's population may be enough to secede. So all I need is a few thousand people. Are there even a few thousand? Well, the freestateproject is trying to find 20,000, which I think would be enough.

I'm interested to see what happens.

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

bloomj31 — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:47:17 GMT

demosthenes:

All property can't be protected all the time. This is the essence of crime. It seems that you are noting that the existence of crime is important. I agree completely. That's what libertarianism is all about. We libertarians hold the correct view that crime would be most effectively minimized in a society of completely unrestrained markets. The existence of crime should make you feel more passionate about justice, not nihilistic about the validity of property rights.

BTW - This board is about to get bitchslapped for being so retarded.

I don't feel dispassionate about justice. Nor do I feel nihilistic about the validity of property rights.

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

Spideynw — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:41:33 GMT

bloomj31:
Do you think there are 15 million people in the US who will do this?

Like I said, 5% of a city's population may be enough to secede. So all I need is a few thousand people. Are there even a few thousand? Well, the freestateproject is trying to find 20,000, which I think would be enough.

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

demosthenes — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:37:23 GMT

2. What the hell good is property if you can't protect it? Private property requires some kind of means of protecting and maintaining it. I'm not saying this couldn't be done without a government I'm just saying that it's kind of important either way

All property can't be protected all the time. This is the essence of crime. It seems that you are noting that the existence of crime is important. I agree completely. That's what libertarianism is all about. We libertarians hold the correct view that crime would be most effectively minimized in a society of completely unrestrained markets. The existence of crime should make you feel more passionate about justice, not nihilistic about the validity of property rights.

BTW - This board is about to get bitchslapped for being so retarded.

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

Peter Sidor — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:21:06 GMT

The Late Andrew Ryan:
I would make pay cuts in response to a deficit which grow with the deficit as well as making seriouse ramifications for corruption.

There may be a more elegant way: Whatever debts a certain administration makes during its existence, are divided and become the personal debt of its members at the end of their period. Simple and self-correcting. :)

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

bloomj31 — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:21:02 GMT

Spideynw:

Get at least 5% of the population, in a geographic location, to stop paying them willingly. Get at least 5% of the population to stop paying fines and take jail time instead. When I say a geographic location, I am talking about a location as small as perhaps a city. It may need to be as large as a state however. Regardless, I think a location the size of a state would be sufficient. In other words, freestateproject.org.

Do you think there are 15 million people in the US who will do this?

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

Spideynw — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:13:21 GMT

bloomj31:
Now, what's your plan for taking the guns away from the government?

Get at least 5% of the population, in a geographic location, to stop paying them willingly. Get at least 5% of the population to stop paying fines and take jail time instead. When I say a geographic location, I am talking about a location as small as perhaps a city. It may need to be as large as a state however. Regardless, I think a location the size of a state would be sufficient. In other words, freestateproject.org.

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

bloomj31 — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:06:12 GMT

Filc,

I don't think you understand what I'm saying here, perhaps this is my fault.

1. There is no reason for a lot of people to turn down government handouts. Some people, like myself, have a reason. But others do not and so they will take them.

2. What the hell good is property if you can't protect it? Private property requires some kind of means of protecting and maintaining it. I'm not saying this couldn't be done without a government I'm just saying that it's kind of important either way

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

filc — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:59:31 GMT

bloomj31:
as long as the government is going to be handing out goodies, we may as well fight to have the goodies handed out to the things we are in favor of.

What happens when the goodies you want differ from the goodies your neighbor wants? Do you not see the fallacy in this form of reasoning? Your fighting for goodies you want and your liberal friends are fighting for the ones they want, they are winning and there are more of them.

bloomj31:
Doesn't owning of property depend on the ability of the owner to protect said property?

Owning property and defending property are entirely two separate things. Defending property is a service just like a landscaper. But the existence of landscapers does not dictate the existence of property no more then a security agency.

In the absence of a security agency if someone steals something from you it's still theft. Property is fearly clearly defined, not sure why you got confused here.

In addition to you can purchase PDA's today. Drug transporting companies do it all the time through central america. Their problem is they go up against governments who have a near unlimited amount of resources. Drug lords cannot extort money from the mass populous where-as governments can. The government is essentially a rogue PDA thats taken control of a whole country. In that respect drug transport companies are no more or no less honest than domestic trucking transport agencies.

Re: Is there a way to deincentivize the hunt for political power?

bloomj31 — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:46:51 GMT

Spideynw:

Are you asking how justice would work in a civilized free society? Do you think without a government, society would devolve into chaos?

No, I don't think society would devolve into chaos, that's not what I said.