General

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Torsten — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:17:01 GMT

Laughing Man:
Government started its expansion the day it was birthed.

Isn't that a non-individualistic / collectivist way of arguing?

It's about the rate. How does the rate of growth/ during the 19th century compare with the one found in the 20th century? And perhaps expansion was reversed at certain stages as well. The question is why?

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Solid_Choke — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:28:43 GMT

Wanderer:

Solid_Choke:

Wanderer:

I'm with John Ess on this one. "Cultural conservative" is just a euphemism for authoritarian, theocratic, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, etc. all propped up by governmental force.

Well yes, except when it isn't. Sometimes it means a cautious demeanor with an sustained effort towards developing the Aristotelian virtues. Everyone seems to mean something different by the term, which makes me prefer not to use it at all.

Aristotelian virtues? Such as moderation?

All the virtues are a mean between excess and deficiency. For instance, courage is the mean between cowardice and rashness, while generosity is the mean between miserliness and extravagance.

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Andrew Cain — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:54:09 GMT

Torsten:
here was less government, when people were more culturally conservative. And as cultural conservativism declined in America, government expanded.

Government started its expansion the day it was birthed.

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Juan — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:25:16 GMT

Wanderer:
"Cultural conservative" is just a euphemism for authoritarian, theocratic, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, etc. ~~all propped up by governmental force.~~

As a matter of fact 'anarcho' conservatives may favor some, or all of those things, and dislike the state because they think the state prevents them from 'creating' say, a fully theocratic 'natural order'.

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

wilderness — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:27:03 GMT

Kenneth:

How did he define cultural conservatism in his book?

I don't think he used the word "cultural" as in "cultural conservatism". Here's how Hoppe defines conservatism:

"What it means, and possibly only can mean, is this: Conversative refers to someone who believes in the existence of a natural order, a natural state of affairs which corresponds to the nature of things: of nature and man. This natural order is and can be disturbed by accidents and anomalies: by earthquakes and hurricanes, diseases, pests, monsters and beats, by two-headed horses or four-legged humans, cripples and idiots, and by war, conquest and tyranny. But it is not difficult to distinguish the normal from the anomaly, the essential from the accidental. A little bit of abstraction removes all the clutter and enables nearly everyone to 'see' what is and what is not natural and in accordance with the nature of things. Moreover, the natural is at the same time the most enduring state of affairs. The natural order is ancient and forever the same (only anomalies and accidents undergo change), hence, it can be recognized by us everywhere and at all times. Conservative refers to someone who recognizes... families and households based on private property and in cooperation with a community of other housholds as the most fundamental, natural essential, ancient, and indispensable social units."

etc, etc... a whole chapter goes on and on about him explaining his point of view on this.

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Wanderer — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:02:33 GMT

Solid_Choke:

Wanderer:

I'm with John Ess on this one. "Cultural conservative" is just a euphemism for authoritarian, theocratic, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, etc. all propped up by governmental force.

Well yes, except when it isn't. Sometimes it means a cautious demeanor with an sustained effort towards developing the Aristotelian virtues. Everyone seems to mean something different by the term, which makes me prefer not to use it at all.

Aristotelian virtues? Such as moderation?

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Torsten — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:23:10 GMT

Seph:
Historically, America was more culturally conservative when they had less government. As government has expanded in America, so has cultural conservatism declined.

I think it's rather the other way round. There was less government, when people were more culturally conservative. And as cultural conservativism declined in America, government expanded. The reasons for this are quite simple. More "progressives" entered the political arena. More voters and acitivists from non-WASP backgrounds started to dominate politics, media and civil society. What you got is the altered America of today.

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Solid_Choke — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 09:32:03 GMT

Wanderer:

I'm with John Ess on this one. "Cultural conservative" is just a euphemism for authoritarian, theocratic, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, etc. all propped up by governmental force.

Well yes, except when it isn't. Sometimes it means a cautious demeanor with an sustained effort towards developing the Aristotelian virtues. Everyone seems to mean something different by the term, which makes me prefer not to use it at all.

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Seph — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 09:08:14 GMT

John Ess:

Correlation is not causation. The state has gotten larger as disease has disappeared, that doesn't mean all those diseases will come back under anarchism.

Which is why I didn't stop my argument there......

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Marko — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:27:03 GMT

What is "tribal bigotry"?

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Kenneth — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:16:46 GMT

How did he define cultural conservatism in his book?

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Kenneth — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:15:37 GMT

Tribal bigotry is propped up by government but Hoppe speculates that in an anarchy( for him more of a natural heirarchy) there will still be all of those primal qualities only this time it will happen 'naturally' or produced by the free market. This un-egalitarian natural order will benefit everybody. Now my question is what is his basis for this speculation or is it just his bias?

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Kenneth — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:15:24 GMT

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

wilderness — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 02:37:05 GMT

Laughing Man is correct. Define conservative first. Hoppe's book "Democracy the God That Failed" is defining conservative very different from you Wanderer and others in the thread. It might be a straw man. Making a diversional argument about this topic that is rooted more in the semantics - not in the government or lack thereof.

Re: What is the basis for Hoppe's speculation of a culturally conservative anarchy?

Wanderer — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 02:34:46 GMT

I'm with John Ess on this one. "Cultural conservative" is just a euphemism for authoritarian, theocratic, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, etc. all propped up by governmental force.