General

Re: Please Enslave Me!

Conza88 — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 07:23:53 GMT

liberty student:

Conza88:
Is progress possible with all people?

You seem to think so

I'd like to hope so, but I realise it is not. Someone can be shown the door, but they are the ones that have to walk through it.

liberty student:
even though you keep repeating the same failed tactic

That depends on what you believe my goal was.

liberty student:
Jacob seems to be winning.

Winning what exactly?

Re: Please Enslave Me!

bloomj31 — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:35:45 GMT

liberty student:

bloomj31:
Alright, which books do you want me to read? I'll go buy them, read them as soon as I can.

Democracy, the God that Failed Hoppe

Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman

You dont have to buy them or read them. I'm not trying to sell you on anything. I only know that despite your resistance to these ideas, you cant seem to get away from us, so maybe you're more curious and open to new ideas than you let on. But either way, I will turn 10 people on to these ideas this week, so your one "conversion" is relatively meaningless to me. In fact, I can't believe these guys have invested so many posts into you. You'll either reconcile your morals with your political preferences (one way or another) or you wont. Regardless, life will continue for the rest of the human race.

Alright, I'll get them. Until then, I will try to refrain from making any statements about an-cap.

Re: Please Enslave Me!

liberty student — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:34:01 GMT

bloomj31:
Alright, which books do you want me to read? I'll go buy them, read them as soon as I can.

Democracy, the God that Failed Hoppe

Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman

You dont have to buy them or read them. I'm not trying to sell you on anything. I only know that despite your resistance to these ideas, you cant seem to get away from us, so maybe you're more curious and open to new ideas than you let on. But either way, I will turn 10 people on to these ideas this week, so your one "conversion" is relatively meaningless to me. In fact, I can't believe these guys have invested so many posts into you. You'll either reconcile your morals with your political preferences (one way or another) or you wont. Regardless, life will continue for the rest of the human race.

Re: Please Enslave Me!

bloomj31 — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:30:23 GMT

liberty student:

bloomj31:
I just think there's more to it than "eliminate the state and make the free market truly free."

There is. That's a strawman. If you dismiss it without understanding it, you're only displaying ignorance, not discretion. Nothing wrong with discarding ancap. I dont buy into the Rothbardian version of objective law. But if you dont understand it (and you clearly dont) then any dismissal of it is meaningless.

bloomj31:
And so far, the sales pitch on this site hasn't convinced me otherwise.

I've already explained to you, the sales pitch as it is, won't ever work. You have to understand the arguments.

bloomj31:
Neither has it convinced me that my "american nationalism or jewish nationalism" or whatever is invalid or stupid.

It does create an exceptionally irrational bias, which depending on how it manifests itself, may be stupid.

Alright, which books do you want me to read? I'll go buy them, read them as soon as I can.

Re: Please Enslave Me!

liberty student — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:28:45 GMT

bloomj31:
I just think there's more to it than "eliminate the state and make the free market truly free."

There is. That's a strawman. If you dismiss it without understanding it, you're only displaying ignorance, not discretion. Nothing wrong with discarding ancap. I dont buy into the Rothbardian version of objective law. But if you dont understand it (and you clearly dont) then any dismissal of it is meaningless.

bloomj31:
And so far, the sales pitch on this site hasn't convinced me otherwise.

I've already explained to you, the sales pitch as it is, won't ever work. You have to understand the arguments.

bloomj31:
Neither has it convinced me that my "american nationalism or jewish nationalism" or whatever is invalid or stupid.

It does create an exceptionally irrational bias, which depending on how it manifests itself, may be stupid.

Re: Please Enslave Me!

bloomj31 — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:24:19 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

its different strokes for different folks.

i wouldn't know where to start with you, since you seem disinclined to read scholarly works on economics and politics.. and you hold onto some quasi-mythological beliefs in the military state, american nationalism, and jewish nationalism.

I suppose if i was truly committed i would try to analyse with you just what is going on in your head when you hear the word military, and nation. but i'm not sure i personally have the stomache for it at this time in my life.

Lol. First of all, I do actually read a lot, whether you believe it or not. Just maybe not stuff from the same schools as you do. Right now, I'm reading Manias, Panics and Crashes by Charles P. Kinderberger and The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt. I'm still working through Mackay's Popular Delusions. I've got about six books on queue after these but I usually read two at a time. I've read Meltdown, I've read Economics In One Lesson, I've read The Road to Serfdom. I've read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead. I've read End The Fed and I've read Running on Empty. I've read Leviathan and The Prince and the Social Contract by Rousseau. I've read New Deal or Raw Deal and I've read Capitalism and Freedom. I've read Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely and I've read Mind of the Market by Shermer. I've read the Lucifer Effect by Phil Zimbardo, which has had a huge influence on me. I've read books on Israel and Judaism, books on atheism and Christianity and Islam. I've got this great book called Filters Against Folly which talks about how political and economic arguments get fused with philosophical arguments and how literate and numerate arguments often get separate from ecolate arguments.

I've got a lot of different ideas floating around in my head and they don't all click together yet. But all these people's thoughts have influenced me and continue to influence me. I want answers, but I don't think an-cap is that answer.

I just think there's more to it than "eliminate the state and make the free market truly free." And so far, the sales pitch on this site hasn't convinced me otherwise. Neither has it convinced me that my "american nationalism or jewish nationalism" or whatever is invalid or stupid.

Re: Please Enslave Me!

nirgrahamUK — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:10:06 GMT

its different strokes for different folks.

i wouldn't know where to start with you, since you seem disinclined to read scholarly works on economics and politics.. and you hold onto some quasi-mythological beliefs in the military state, american nationalism, and jewish nationalism.

I suppose if i was truly committed i would try to analyse with you just what is going on in your head when you hear the word military, and nation. but i'm not sure i personally have the stomache for it at this time in my life.

Re: Please Enslave Me!

bloomj31 — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:07:15 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

sure, and it pays to know who you might get a sale from, and who is a lost cause

Fair enough. But how did you go about selling this idea to other converts? By calling them immoral? By telling them that everything was better when your philosophy becomes your foundation and you make your political and economic viewpoints consistent with your philosophical viewpoint?

Re: Please Enslave Me!

nirgrahamUK — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:05:24 GMT

sure, and it pays to know who you might get a sale from, and who is a lost cause

Re: Please Enslave Me!

bloomj31 — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:04:30 GMT

nirgrahamUK:

Relevance?

Well, an-cap is an idea, like all things it requires selling. Have you ever sold anything?

Re: Please Enslave Me!

nirgrahamUK — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:02:37 GMT

bloomj31:
Conza, have you ever had to sell anything?

relevance?

Re: Please Enslave Me!

bloomj31 — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:01:09 GMT

Conza88:

Is progress possible with all people?

Doesn't it get to a point - where it is all about them being intellectually honest? And willing to address their inner contradictions and inconsistencies? And what if they are not - then they're not open minded, or able to be persuaded... in which case, surely an exchange would be fruitless - if it wasn't for the lurkers.

What more could be said, or done to make progress? Out of the 1,000's of peoples posts directed at convincing bloom / defending the concepts he has attacked, both on this account - and his one that was banned, has there been any considerable progress?

Conza, have you ever had to sell anything?

Re: Please Enslave Me!

Andrew Cain — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 05:55:08 GMT

liberty student:
Jacob seems to be winning.

Everybody is a winner

Re: Please Enslave Me!

liberty student — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 05:16:55 GMT

Conza88:
Is progress possible with all people?

You seem to think so, even though you keep repeating the same failed tactic, which has only resulted in frustrating yourself.

Jacob seems to be winning.

Re: Please Enslave Me!

Conza88 — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 04:43:10 GMT

liberty student:

Conza88:
Pathetic.

That's not how we make progress.

Is progress possible with all people?

Doesn't it get to a point - where it is all about them being intellectually honest? And willing to address their inner contradictions and inconsistencies? And what if they are not - then they're not open minded, or able to be persuaded... in which case, surely an exchange would be fruitless - if it wasn't for the lurkers.

What more could be said, or done to make progress? Out of the 1,000's of peoples posts directed at convincing bloom / defending the concepts he has attacked, both on this account - and his one that was banned, has there been any considerable progress?