General

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

Kakugo — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 13:04:32 GMT

assimilateur:

Kakugo:
Are still not convinced?

I never questioned that the Danish government was fleecing car owners (probably every government does, but from what you said Denmark is especially bad), I just balked at your statement that the only reason they didn't ban cars was to appease the Germans. That was either hyperbole or a gross exaggeration of the government's power and malice.

They even went as far as saying restricting carriageways and building obstacles (speed bumps etc) in the middle of nowhere are made "to discourage the use of cars"... that's about as far as they can go without banning them. Remember Louis XIV used a similar approach with Protestants until he felt strong enough to take on the United Provinces, the Protestants' strongest and most influential patron.Then he simply forced them to convert to Catholicism. Denmark will never be strong enough to take on Germany so they have to put a muzzle on their bizarre social engineering projects.

Anyone's got any valid lead on some book/website?

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

Justin Spahr-Summers — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 03:29:15 GMT

assimilateur:
Caley McKibbin:
if not 100%.

You probably meant that as a joke, but there actually are lunatics who propose just that. Or perhaps they are joking? It's hard to tell on the face of it, and I'm not willing to delve into that topic to find out.

They seem pretty serious. Maybe all environmentalists will voluntarily become extinct. That'd be nice.

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

Caley McKibbin — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 21:38:56 GMT

assimilateur:

Caley McKibbin:
if not 100%.

You probably meant that as a joke, but there actually are lunatics who propose just that. Or perhaps they are joking? It's hard to tell on the face of it, and I'm not willing to delve into that topic to find out.

I was not joking and that is not nearly the only example.

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

assimilateur — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 21:03:35 GMT

Caley McKibbin:
if not 100%.

You probably meant that as a joke, but there actually are lunatics who propose just that. Or perhaps they are joking? It's hard to tell on the face of it, and I'm not willing to delve into that topic to find out.

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

Caley McKibbin — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 20:54:29 GMT

It is environmentalist mentality, not anti-car mentality. Environmentalists think that everyone should ride bikes and 90% of the human popualtion should be wiped out, if not 100%.

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

assimilateur — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 19:11:43 GMT

Kakugo:
Are still not convinced?

I never questioned that the Danish government was fleecing car owners (probably every government does, but from what you said Denmark is especially bad), I just balked at your statement that the only reason they didn't ban cars was to appease the Germans. That was either hyperbole or a gross exaggeration of the government's power and malice.

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

Stranger — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 18:36:05 GMT

Sphairon:

Since we're all sharing expense stories here:

My license: roughly 1800 €, and no, I did not fail the driving exams.

Car: 19% VAT on purchase, 250 € car tax a year (for a whopping 1600cc on a diesel), 300 € mandatory insurance a year.

Driving: I pay about 3,4 € per 100 km in gas taxes, which makes for about 340 € on my expected 6000 miles a year.

Maintenance: mandatory safety and emissions checkup every two years, 70 €.

Bottom line: Americans win again.

I doubt this is caused by the anti-car lobby. Usually it is the driving school and insurance lobbies that get these regulations passed.

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

Sphairon — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 18:29:52 GMT

Since we're all sharing expense stories here:

My license: roughly 1800 €, and no, I did not fail the driving exams.

Car: 19% VAT on purchase, 250 € car tax a year (for a whopping 1600cc on a diesel), 300 € mandatory insurance a year.

Driving: I pay about 3,4 € per 100 km in gas taxes, which makes for about 340 € on my expected 6000 miles a year.

Maintenance: mandatory safety and emissions checkup every two years, 70 €.

Bottom line: Americans win again.

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

AJ — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:38:45 GMT

Yipes, I forgot how expensive it is to drive in Japan. $3000 for the mandatory driving school before you can get a license (although foreigners with overseas licenses are exempt). Then expensive and super-strict mandatory inspections every two years, plus all this stuff:

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2022.html (Yen figures converted to dollars)

"Owning and operating a car, however, involves numerous expenses. These include compulsory inspections (shaken) every two to three years, various taxes, mandatory and optional insurance, high parking costs in cities, and expensive toll expressways. A liter of gasoline costs roughly $1.10 (April 2009).

Shaken is a compulsory safety inspection, which cars in Japan have to undergo every two years, except new cars, for which the first inspection is not due until three years after purchase. The shaken typically costs between $1000 and $2000, and besides the actual inspection includes a weight tax (typically $80 to $500) and a mandatory insurance (about $300).

Since the mandatory insurance does not provide full coverage, it is recommended to purchase additional, optional car insurance. Furthermore, there is an annual automobile tax, which depends on the engine size and is typically between $100 and $500, and an acquisition tax to be paid when you buy the car.

When acquiring a car, numerous documents have to be filled out, including forms to register your car and to verify ownership of a parking space. If you buy a used car, the process is further complicated by forms regulating the transfer of ownership. "

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

Kakugo — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:32:16 GMT

assimilateur:

Kakugo:
The only reason they haven't banned cars altogether is because their giant southern neighbor wouldn't take it very lightly being Europe's premier car manufacturer.

Surely, you must be exaggerating. As much as I loathe modern European totalitarian democracies (that's not the compatible with the official definition of the term, but I figure you know what I mean), that sort of thing would be way over the top even for them.

OK, say you are a Danish and want to own a car. First you need to get a license. The paperwork in itself isn't particularly expensive since all prices are fixed (for example the medical certificate costs 350 krone, less than 50€, from any doctor) but driving and theoretical lessons may be a bit on the steep side. I've heard all sort of horror stories about this part but general agreement is that 1000€ won't be enough to get you rolling, paperwork excluded of course. Motorcycle licenses cost considerably more.

After spending a few thousand euros to get your license (and don't fail: each successive attempt will cost more and more) you may want to consider a car. let's say you have a good paying job and fancy a particular brand new model. You walk into a dealership and ask. The car costs n krone. On top of that you need to pay 25% VAT and, after VAT has been added, there's another 180% "registration tax" on top of the finished price (though the first 45000 krone of value are only taxed at 90%... but which car costs less than that nowadays?). That may make a VW Polo more expensive as a nice BMW 3 series in Germany. If your heart and wallet survived the assault prepare because there's more to come. Yearly ownership tax (I don't want to know how much is that), driving license tax, license plate tax, excise tax on top of fuel plus VAT... that's a bit excessive even by European standards (Germans have many running jokes about the "Communists north of the border").

Until now it may just appear as a blatant attempt to fleece you of as much money as possible. But there's so much more, including: speed cameras everywhere and draconian sanctions, untenable speed limits... In the past few years they have even started restricting carriageways to make room for bicycle paths and to build obstacles to "discourage the use of car".

The place is so car-hating that bikers en route to North Cape (a popular destination) will take infinite troubles to avoid passing through: most will gladly pay and take a ferry from Kiel to Oslo or Goteborg rather than face the notoriously ferocious Danish police and pay their overpriced fuel.

Are still not convinced?

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

assimilateur — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 16:36:13 GMT

Kakugo:
The only reason they haven't banned cars altogether is because their giant southern neighbor wouldn't take it very lightly being Europe's premier car manufacturer.

Surely, you must be exaggerating. As much as I loathe modern European totalitarian democracies (that's not the compatible with the official definition of the term, but I figure you know what I mean), that sort of thing would be way over the top even for them.

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

Kakugo — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:54:38 GMT

AJ:

assimilateur:
Also, isn't this less about getting people to drive less than about justifying the fleecing of car owners via taxes?

Actually this sounds like it. It's not that they are anti-car, but that they will be happy to use the anti-car sentiment of certain environmentalists to justify more taxes and regulations. Just like cap-and-trade for global warming morphed into just more taxes.

That is exactly what I am investigating at the moment.I need to collect as much material as possible.

Denmark is notorious for having done anything they can to make car ownership as expensive and difficult as possible. The only reason they haven't banned cars altogether is because their giant southern neighbor wouldn't take it very lightly being Europe's premier car manufacturer.Push social engineering and get some easy money as well.

And remember that car manufacturers themselves aren't above joining ranks with their own enemies when they can make a quick buck. One day they'll wake up in horror at their bedfellows but then it will be too late.

Thanks for all entries and please keep them coming.

Re: The Anti-Car Mentality

Marko — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:13:21 GMT

AJ:

They hate our freedoms

I'm only half-joking, because really cars are harder to centrally manage than central transportation like railways, so it leaves less of a role for government. (I suppose.)

What, you mean that anybody at all who has 5,000$ can walk into a privately owned car dealership and get a car?! My, we should put an end to that! Only members of the anointed class and folks with special dispensation from the wise supervisors should be able to go where they want.

Their only problem is they are doing it backwards. They should go to the source and nationalise auto making and distribution. Oh wait... They're doing that too now.