General

Re: Can children reason?

filc — Tue, 23 Mar 2010 18:11:37 GMT

Spideynw:
So one can choose to have sex when one can reason?

Inaction is still a choice, not being aware of something and choosing inaction is still a sign of reasoning. It could be that the reasoning behind certain action is being unaware of the consequences.

Your argument is equivalent to me having the right to invest your money against your will simply because you arn't aware of investing and you haven't the capacity or reasoning to decide where best to invest. Such a belief is folly.

And as ERO pointed out, reasoning[1] has nothing to do with determining a self owner and ultimately rights. There is also no humanly way of measuring ones ability to reason without assuming to be omniscient, all such judgments are bias and opinionated. Your thesis on reason goes against the entire premise of praxeology. That you do not have perfect knowledge of other people's preferences in the now, nor in the future.

Let me know when your ready to answer my question.

filc:
Let me ask you this. Do you have kids? If not pretend you do. Can you imagine a situation where your child asks you permission for something, and you tell them no?

[1] As it is implied in the manner of your context.

Re: Can children reason?

Spideynw — Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:49:58 GMT

filc:
Being cognitively unaware

"Cognitive - of or pertaining to the mental processes of perception, memory, judgment, and reasoning, as contrasted with emotional and volitional processes." (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cognitive).

So one can choose to have sex when one can reason?

Re: Can children reason?

filc — Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:13:39 GMT

No more convenient than it is for a physicist to point out that gravity DOES exist, when arguing with a lunatic who thinks otherwise!

There is also nothing inconsistent with the points I made. Being cognitively unaware of an action does not grant someone else a positive right to take advantage of you with that action. You are still violating the self-owners property. That rule applies to all age groups.

Re: Can children reason?

Spideynw — Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:10:12 GMT

filc:
You would obviously be duping the child.

How convenient. On one hand a toddler can supposedly choose to have sex, on the other the toddler is obviously "duped" into it. Which is it? Let me know when you make up your mind. I can't really have a conversation with someone who doesn't even know what he believes.

Re: Can children reason?

MMMark — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 22:35:18 GMT

Mon. 10/03/22 17:36 EDT
.post #21

filc:
...if I propose to have sex with a foreigner who does not speak English. How do I know if I have consent or not?

I suspect that this is a rhetorical question, but let me treat it as an interrogative question.

One answer is: If, at some point, the foreigner wants (you) to stop, then you know you do not have consent.
Since there is no contract, there is neither right nor obligation to continue.

Re: Can children reason?

filc — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:32:35 GMT

Spideynw:
Then having sex with a toddler is not rape. Just ask a toddler if she will have sex with you. I am sure you can get her to say yes (without using threats).

filc:
To answer your question, I ask another question. Is the child actually consenting to sex? Yes or no? If you answer yes, how do you know?

Spideynw:
Then having sex with a toddler is not rape. Just ask a toddler if she will have sex with you. I am sure you can get her to say yes (without using threats).

filc:
Any one who assumes that a toddler is agreeing or actually comprehends your question is blatantly being dishonest. I cannot think of a more clear example.

Spideynw:
So everything I do to my toddler (like lock her in her room at night) is a rights violation? That's just dumb.

filc:
Locking the child in their room is negligence.

Spideynw:
Only in your crazy world. I don't know of a single law ever proposed suggesting that locking your child in their room at night is negligent

filc:
It is an opinion. I'm sorry you have such a hard time with them.

Spideynw:
Law should be based on logic, not opinion.

filc:
Laws don't make right or wrong.

Spideynw:
I didn't say they do.

It's implied in your statement that you take a legal positivist approach. When i said negligence I was simply sharing my opinion, something I am entitled to do. That doesn't equate to me saying I am going to call the police.

Laws do not make rights. Legal action is just one path we can take for detirmining who has more of a claim to action. There are other avenue's we can take, we are not limited to legal recourse alone. We have reason, logic, and argumentation among other things.

Spideynw:
You are just avoiding the question.

As opposed to

Spideynw:
Do I have an obligation to answer every little question you ask? If so where is the evidence? If not, then why would I answer it? Just because you ask me my address, age, dob, ssn, etc. doesn't mean I am going to give it to you. Cops think that way though.

You don't have to do anything, but please out of respect don't accuse me and others of being evasive then.

Spideynw:
Law should be based on logic, not opinion.

The problem is you can deduce anything logically when your premise is flawed, and your conclusion will likewise also be flawed, even if the steps you followed were logically sound. It's like me taking a premise that there is no gravity, well I can deduce logically that we can fly. But my premise is apparently flawed.

The issue is your premise.

Re: Can children reason?

DanielMuff — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:02:11 GMT

Spideynw:

Daniel Muffinburg:

Spidey, here is a recap of what's been going this year:

Us: Do children have rights?
You: No, because they cannot reason.
Us: Prove that they cannot not reason.
You: You are asking me to prove a negative.
Us: What evidence do you require to prove that children can reason?
You: At what age can a child chose to have sex?

So, please stop saying that we're being intellectually dishonest.

Anyone can play make believe.

Immaterial.

Re: Can children reason?

Spideynw — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:58:45 GMT

Daniel Muffinburg:

Spidey, here is a recap of what's been going this year:

Us: Do children have rights?
You: No, because they cannot reason.
Us: Prove that they cannot not reason.
You: You are asking me to prove a negative.
Us: What evidence do you require to prove that children can reason?
You: At what age can a child chose to have sex?

So, please stop saying that we're being intellectually dishonest.

Anyone can play make believe.

Re: Can children reason?

DanielMuff — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:57:25 GMT

Spidey, here is a recap of what's been going this year:

Us: Do children have rights?
You: No, because they cannot reason.
Us: Prove that they cannot not reason.
You: You are asking me to prove a negative.
Us: What evidence do you require to prove that children can reason?
You: At what age can a child chose to have sex?

So, please stop saying that we're being intellectually dishonest.

Re: Can children reason?

Spideynw — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:50:58 GMT

filc:

filc:
Locking the child in their room is negligence.

It is an opinion.

Law should be based on logic, not opinion.

filc:
Laws don't make right or wrong.

I didn't say they do.

filc:
3 times now you refuse to answer the following question

Do I have an obligation to answer every little question you ask? If so where is the evidence? If not, then why would I answer it? Just because you ask me my address, age, dob, ssn, etc. doesn't mean I am going to give it to you. Cops think that way though.

Re: Can children reason?

filc — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:45:34 GMT

filc:
Locking the child in their room is negligence.

It is an opinion. I'm sorry you have such a hard time with them.

Spideynw:
I don't know of a single law ever proposed suggesting that locking your child in their room at night is negligent.

Laws don't make right or wrong. Do you understand what legal positivism is? Before you can argue what are rights you should perhaps spend a few minutes learning what a right is.

3 times now you refuse to answer the following question

filc:
Let me ask you this. Do you have kids? If not pretend you do. Can you imagine a situation where your child asks you permission for something, and you tell them no?

Re: Can children reason?

Spideynw — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:43:01 GMT

filc:
Locking the child in their room is negligence.

Only in your crazy world. I don't know of a single law ever proposed suggesting that locking your child in their room at night is negligent. Apparently, most statists understand parent's rights much better than a lot of supposed libertarians.

Re: Can children reason?

filc — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:41:07 GMT

Spideynw:
So everything I do to my toddler (like lock her in her room at night) is a rights violation?

Locking the child in their room is negligence.

There is an implied contract in a parent/child relationship. A guardianship relationship.

I personally would definitely send my child to their room, but never lock them up so that they could not get out

Spideynw:
That's just dumb.

What a profound, well thought out assessment. So I can expect this level of intellectual rigor when ERO and I are allegedly being dishonest eh?

Re: Can children reason?

Spideynw — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:36:30 GMT

filc:
Any one who assumes that a toddler is agreeing or actually comprehends your question is blatantly being dishonest. I cannot think of a more clear example.

So everything I do to my toddler (like lock her in her room at night) is a rights violation? That's just dumb.

Re: Can children reason?

filc — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:25:40 GMT

Stranger:

Daniel Muffinburg:

If you do not know what "rly" means, then you shouldn't be on the Internetz. Lol.

I was under the impression we could speak English on the internet, although this newspeak of yours does make it convenient to sort out when one is addressing children or adults. (How topical!)

Guess that means your homesteadable Daniel.