General

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Jonathan M. F. Catalán — Sun, 11 Apr 2010 05:12:49 GMT

I. Ryan:

Check out this post:

Well, I'm not sure the Apache gunner believed it was under immediate threat. I think they wanted to break up an ambush before it happened, but even then there were hardly any hints that those twenty men were preparing an ambush.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

I. Ryan — Sun, 11 Apr 2010 04:03:48 GMT

Check out this post:

Aaron:

How could the Apache pilots think they were under attack? They claim they saw AK-47s (no threat to a flying tank, which is an Apache).

They claim to see an RPG. OK that could shoot down an Apache, but did anyone else count the number of secconds that passes when the first 30mm rounds were fired till they hit? That chopper was a good 3km away, no way was it in danger from an RPG.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Bostwick — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 02:54:53 GMT

krazy kaju:
Having something slung over your shoulder in a weapon-like fashion, walking in the middle of a road and pointing your fingers around like a military leader apparently giving commands to the other young men around you, and then appearing to take aim at something in a war zone is grounds for taking action, IMHO. But hell, maybe that's just my survival instinct.

No, that would be your volunteer to fly to the other side of the world to hunt and kill your fellow man instinct.

Your position has to be with no exaggeration among the most disturbing things I've seen on this forum.

By the way, that "RPG" is a tripod.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

DanielMuff — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:46:33 GMT

Daniel Waite:
Daniel Muffinburg:

Do property rights not exist in a war zone?

Define "war zone" and describe how one is created and passes on. What human actions must occur in order to label something a "war zone"?

Ask Krazy Kaju.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Daniel Waite — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:37:13 GMT

Daniel Muffinburg:

Do property rights not exist in a war zone?

Define "war zone" and describe how one is created and passes on. What human actions must occur in order to label something a "war zone"?

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

twistedbydsign99 — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:39:03 GMT

Seph:
I can honestly say that this may be one of the most utterly insane, idiotic statements I have ever read on the internet.

Can you condemn him for not being compassionate with that statement? Seems contradictory.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Seph — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 06:02:29 GMT

hayekianxyz:
Sorry buddy, worse shit happens everyday all of the world. I can tell you some pretty messed up stories that friends of mine have told me from where they've visited. If this really made you cry you should maybe go introduce yourself to the real world.

I can honestly say that this may be one of the most utterly insane, idiotic statements I have ever read on the internet.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Blueline976 — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 05:40:43 GMT

Curius Dentatus:

Blueline976:

Yes, I mentioned resolution. Also, he must be in his 20's. Specifically, he stated:

I assure you, there are no optics that can give you a better view than what we saw. That was about as good as it gets. There are several types of optics that can be used in an Apache, one of which is the same camera feed that we saw. There are others factors such as movement, the size of the images, and preoccupation with other tasks that affect their ability to accurately designate targets.

Sorry then I am surely siding with Catalán if I proceed to with your post it will only be ad hominems. I know Catalán is right. Let us leave it at that.

I didn't write the indented part of my previous post. I'm arguing with a person on a separate forum, and the indented part is what the other person said.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Curius Dentatus — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 05:38:09 GMT

Blueline976:

Yes, I mentioned resolution. Also, he must be in his 20's. Specifically, he stated:

I assure you, there are no optics that can give you a better view than what we saw. That was about as good as it gets. There are several types of optics that can be used in an Apache, one of which is the same camera feed that we saw. There are others factors such as movement, the size of the images, and preoccupation with other tasks that affect their ability to accurately designate targets.

Then I am siding with Catalán, if I proceed with your post it will only be full of ad hominems towards your "military expert." I know Catalán is right. Let us leave it at that.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Esuric — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 04:56:56 GMT

Gipper:
This was a mistake, pure and simple. Trying to spin ludicrous conspiracy theories about how soldiers are baby killers is not going to help the anti-war movement.

How does apologizing for the state help the anti-war movement?

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Gipper — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 04:51:09 GMT

krazy kaju:

So let me get this straight... US soldiers were receiving fire from insurgents so they call in close air support. A helicopter comes in, finds a group of young men, one of whom is carrying an AK-47 and two who seem to be carrying RPGs, so they figure these must be the insurgents and they shoot. Then, someone comes to pick up what the guys in the chopper believe is a wounded insurgent. So the helicopter opens fire on the people that were believed to be aiding in the escape of an insurgent.

This was a mistake, pure and simple. Trying to spin ludicrous conspiracy theories about how soldiers are baby killers is not going to help the anti-war movement.

Well said, sir.

I'm not defending what happened in that video, but if something is "classified" how does Wikileaks get their hand on it?

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Jonathan M. F. Catalán — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 03:03:27 GMT

Blueline976:

I assure you, there are no optics that can give you a better view than what we saw.

That's untrue; it may be true of night sights - which I have personal experience with - but not optical day sights, especially electronically enhanced sights. The camera mounted coaxially to the sights are bound to get a worse image than the gunner, because they aren't made to be as clear as the gunner's ... probably for issues of cost and necessity.

...one of which is the same camera feed that we saw.

The gunner does not get the camera feed. The gunner, like it says in that photograph, has an optical sight and has an electronic sight. But the camera is mounted coaxially as an option; the TV sight is completely separate.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Blueline976 — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 02:40:59 GMT

Curius Dentatus:

Blueline976:

Jonathan M. F. Catalán:

...then taking into consideration the high resolution those gunner sights get - not the resolution you see through the coax camera...

I'm just curious; do you have a source for this? I've been searching for information on the optics pilots have in Apache helicopters but can't find much about "high resolution." I have a military-buff on another forum telling me that what the pilots saw is what we saw (the grainy footage from the on-craft camera).

He is technically correct. Did you mention resolution? Also how old is he... technology moves quickly.

Yes, I mentioned resolution. Also, he must be in his 20's. Specifically, he stated:

I assure you, there are no optics that can give you a better view than what we saw. That was about as good as it gets. There are several types of optics that can be used in an Apache, one of which is the same camera feed that we saw. There are others factors such as movement, the size of the images, and preoccupation with other tasks that affect their ability to accurately designate targets.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Curius Dentatus — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 01:03:38 GMT

Blueline976:

Jonathan M. F. Catalán:

...then taking into consideration the high resolution those gunner sights get - not the resolution you see through the coax camera...

I'm just curious; do you have a source for this? I've been searching for information on the optics pilots have in Apache helicopters but can't find much about "high resolution." I have a military-buff on another forum telling me that what the pilots saw is what we saw (the grainy footage from the on-craft camera).

He is technically correct. Did you mention resolution? Also how old is he... technology moves quickly.

Re: Wikileaks.org, Collateralmurder.com

Spideynw — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 22:12:58 GMT

auctionguy10:
I guess you meant every last person killed "isn't" criminal?

I worded that wrong. I revised it so hopefully it makes more sense.