General

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

Sieben — Tue, 04 May 2010 01:13:53 GMT

Basically if you lend money to a country, and then pay the leader to not pay you back, and then claim the people of that country now owe you money, you're comitting theft.

Just like if you lent money to a crack addict, paid him to overdose, and then said his kids owed you. People would never stand for it.

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

Layano — Mon, 03 May 2010 23:04:39 GMT

Yeah I've read the text that Conza88 posted a few posts above, "Marxist and Austrian Class Analysis - Hoppe", I didn't know there was an "imperialism theory" in libertarianism :p There's so much things to read, I don't have enough time :(

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

Sieben — Mon, 03 May 2010 22:33:16 GMT

Layano:
And if the standard of living has raised in capitalist countries, that's because of imperialism. (read Lenine's Impérialisme, Stade suprême du capitalisme.

Lame, but true. I remember when I did all my IMF research. Le depressing

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

Clayton — Mon, 03 May 2010 22:10:05 GMT

Thanks for the links, it's certainly worth giving to my friends BUT they don't speak english. French people suck terribly at english and any foreign language, I have to find texts in french if I want to give them.

You have the great fortune of being able to read one of the most eminent scholars of liberty in his native tongue: Frederic Bastiat. All his works are available for free online (in French, English, etc.) but you can order them on Amazon, as well. I wish I could read French because I'm sure Bastiat's works are all the more eloquent in his mother tongue! I recommend La loi to everyone who is new to the philosophy of liberty. It's short, concise and gets right to the heart of what is wrong with Socialism, morally and practically. It blew my mind and I'm sure you will like it. You should also read Harmonies Économiques, but that's a longer read.

Clayton -

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

Esuric — Mon, 03 May 2010 11:33:29 GMT

"The price of commodities are the quantity of labout embodied in them. Well, ok, demand and supplies can change prices, but that's not important." WTF ?

lol, priceless.

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

Layano — Mon, 03 May 2010 11:27:32 GMT

What I'd have answered to those questions 1 month ago :

1. How do you account for Marx and Engel's bourgeois heritage and wealthy lifestyles, indeed Engels made his money off of factory labor
You can be a bourgeois and defend the poors. Actually, wealth and knowledge is needed to come up with a system as powerful as marxism, so no poor guy could have written Dad Kapital for exemple, because poor were too busy trying to survive.
(In fact, most [all] of LO come from the petite-bourgeois, are sons of ingeneer, teachers etc.)

2. Why is it that those nations which have historically been most susceptible to actual communist uprisings are poor agrarian societies, not wealthy industrialized societies?
Because we had no luck :( A communist party is needed for a revolution to happen. If there's no communist revolutionnary (bolchevik) party, then it can't happen because there will be nobody to take the power. So our goal now is to build strong leninists parties all around the world to take the power when the proletariat will revolt.

3. Living standards for modern capitalistic nations have increased steadily over the decades and the middle class has not dissapeared like Marx said it was a century and a half ago?
The middle class is dissapearing with the crisis. (2 months ago I had a debate with a communist who told me that the number of petit-bourgeois was decreasing, I didn't believe so...) And if the standard of living has raised in capitalist countries, that's because of imperialism. (read Lenine's Impérialisme, Stade suprême du capitalisme.)

4. Why is it that people simply acting freely is a bad thing?
Because that causes poverty all over the world, and crisis that will lead capitalism to its end. (but we'll have to help it falling with a revolution)

5. Why is it that communism is currently so weak?
Because people are brain-washed and have no hope in future.

6. Why is Marxism so absolutely out of fashion in the economics profession?
Because they're bourgeois. (and in France, it's not old fashioned, half my teachers are marxists...)

7. How is it that members of the bourgeoisie could be good and the proletariat evil if they dont support the revolution and members of the bourgoisie good if they do support the revolution
Because communism is a good thing. So if you're a bourgeois and don't like it, you're an ennemy of the proletariat. BUT if you're a worker and don't believe in communism, then it's not your fault, that's because you've been brainwashed by bourgeois media and politicians.

That's not exactly the way I'd have answered, but I have some difficulty now to take these answers seriously. Damn I was stupid.

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

Naevius — Mon, 03 May 2010 04:52:45 GMT

I'm very glad to have you here with us, my friend. It's always a blessing when another searching soul finds the light of truth.

Is it just me, or are there hardly any libertarians who were raised like that from birth? For example, I was raised in a very neoconservative environment for most of my life before finding my own way to libertarianism. It seems like libertarians are made, not born. I wonder what that says about our beliefs? Something good, I'd wager, considering the vast number of "converts" (for lack of a better term) we gather from all points across the political spectrum.

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

Vichy Army — Mon, 03 May 2010 03:10:43 GMT

I approached Marxism from a theoretical side, I read many of those dreary essays by Mao (and even Lenin and Stalin), and Marx original political and economic writings. I find the central part of Das Kapital to be the most compelling logically, but the political and economic contradictions in Marxism were just too glaring to make much sense out of his writings.

I would say Mao was the most interesting, since an insight into Maoism, especially On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People and On New Democracy , are extremely useful in understanding the modern left's intellectual and internal theoretic system. Whatever they call it, the majority of the 'new left' presently ensconced in power are Maoists of one sort or another, with ones like Chomsky still being left in the Cultural Revolution.

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

The Late Andrew Ryan — Mon, 03 May 2010 02:15:11 GMT

Hello! And I'm glad to see the huge intellectual leaps which you have recently taken.

I would really appreciate it is you could do me a favor and tell me what exactly your answers to the following questions would have been when you were a Marxist.

1. How do you account for Marx and Engel's bourgeois heritage and wealthy lifestyles, indeed Engels made his money off of factory labor

2. Why is it that those nations which have historically been most susceptible to actual communist uprisings are poor agrarian societies, not wealthy industrialized societies?

3. Living standards for modern capitalistic nations have increased steadily over the decades and the middle class has not dissapeared like Marx said it was a century and a half ago?

4. Why is it that people simply acting freely is a bad thing?

5. Why is it that communism is currently so weak?

6. Why is Marxism so absolutely out of fashion in the economics profession?

7. How is it that members of the bourgeoisie could be good and the proletariat evil if they dont support the revolution and members of the bourgoisie good if they do support the revolution

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

whakaheke — Sun, 02 May 2010 21:06:20 GMT

Yep, I used to call myself a "Marxist" of sorts at one point too (also a "socialist" and later "neoconservative"), though never of any Leninist streak. I think there is still some things of value in some Marxist stuff - like autonomism - but they're needles in a haystack of cultish stupidity.

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

Layano — Sun, 02 May 2010 20:58:04 GMT

It wouldn't have any effect to try to explain them austrian stuff. They're mind-locked, they've been really endoctrinated, it is really like a religion. When I doubted about something that Marx or Engels wrote, they frowned at me and really seemed not to like anyone to disagree with anything. And I could also noticed that the young activists, who were about my age, feared of asking questions. lol.

The youngest member is about 30 and have spent 10 years fighting for his ideas, he was the leader of a strike 6 months ago, he's responsible of the local union, he was candidate at every election for the last 5 years etc.

And they're all like this.

I think I'm hopeful not to be close-minded, and also very lucky to speak english (or I couldn't have read Bohem-Bawerk's book :p), and still young (I'm 20) and also not to be too implicated in the party's life (like I don't write the flyers, I've never been candidate for the elections etc.) so could walk away from them more easily I guess...

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

antonioecc — Sun, 02 May 2010 20:34:17 GMT

If you keep in touch with your comunist friends, try to show them your opinion!!!

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

antonioecc — Sun, 02 May 2010 20:32:11 GMT

Once again, you see how austrian economics and most important, liberalism, is found by people that is really worried about society and future. Amazing story, I used to be a "light socialist" some time, then I figure it's very easy to be a socialist with other people's money. Capitalism is not a imposition, it's a natural thing, and there is its beauty. Welcome Layano!

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

krazy kaju — Sun, 02 May 2010 20:05:18 GMT

Layano:
I'm going to read a looott of books ! I've ordered "Economics in one lesson", "Economics for real people", "Human action" and "Socialism" (by Mises) 3 days ago :)

Great!

I suggest you read them in the order you listed, so you should read Economics in One Lesson first, then Economics for Real People, and once you get a good understanding of these two texts I suggest you move on to Human Action and Socialism. Honestly, the study of Human Action alone could take you years. I know I've been constantly returning to it ever since I got it.

Re: Why I abandoned marxism.

Layano — Sun, 02 May 2010 19:48:46 GMT

Hey that's very exciting. Not much dissapointing... I've learnt a lot of things during these 3 years, they make me like reading actually. But what piss me off is that I participated in conveying bullshit. For 3 years. Damn it.

Yeah I know there are hundred of book to read, I've already started :) As I said, I read Bohem-Bawerk book "Marx and the close of his system", I've read some articles on the blogs, I've watched about a dozen of Mises Institute lecture, I've read the mises.org and liberaux.org forums :) And I ordered 4 books about autrichian economy :)

I also need nice T-shirts. x)

Thanks a lot to the Mises Institute for saving all those books and ideas ! Now it's my turn to spread these ideas ;)