General

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

nirgrahamUK — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 23:12:37 GMT

>>What could have ever led them to pass such a law I wonder?

maybe they got up on the wrong side of bed.

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

Marko — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 23:05:44 GMT

Did you know that in the Palestinian Authority there is legislation prohibiting 'foreign land ownership', in particular.... Israeli's, if a Palestinian sells property to an Israeli, he can receive the death penalty. You can search news reports......

That is terrible. What could have ever drove them to pass such a law I wonder?

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

DD5 — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 21:04:14 GMT

"The point about Jordan and Egypt is that they run states that at least, provide the very basics for a foundation of civilization."

And the point is that it is an unfair comparison since there is no conflict there. "Where" the Palestinian conflict takes place is manufactured. Logically, it should take place in Jordan where they are actually the majority. Maybe you didn't get that part.

" I think Jordan holds on to Palestine, because Israel's encroachment and their larger bargaining power."

Jordan doesn't hold on to Palestine. It is Palestine! I think you missed that little piece of detail also.

"And it is not like there is a choice of state versus anarchism. At the current stage, there is no way to shift into anarchism."

Supporting the solution of a Palestinian State is not somehow a support in the right direction. The case could be made that it is actually a solution promoting even more statism. I don't see how it is the right direction to support groups that are using violence to establish their own State instead of Israel, or side by side.

You also haven't made the case that Palestinians would be better off. Your assumption that it would be no worse off then Egypt or Jordan is a rather curious one. Egypt and Jordan are not exactly freedom paradise. They are also very poor. I could make the case that Palestinians embracing Israeli occupation could have a much more prosperous and healthier life. The reasons for this are obvious. I'm not advocating this, but just pointing out the fallacy in resorting to present human conditions that are mostly the result of the statist conflict itself.

"It seems you are using pessimism to wipe the blood of the Israelis hands."

But that blood is shared with just as many (if not more) Palestinians, other Muslims, and western hypocrites who support this statist fabricated Palestinian resistance movement. So spare me the left wing statist propaganda about Israeli atrocities. I'll take their short sighted perspective on this issue when they convince me that Capitalism is the cause of poverty.

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

John Ess — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:31:59 GMT

I don't see how it is a statist setup anymore than say former Soviet states wanting to get out of that mess. It would further delegitimize states to have more states rather than less. The point about Jordan and Egypt is that they run states that at least, provide the very basics for a foundation of civilization. No states are good, of course, but they are proof that the region can provide a better standard of living than the one in Gaza. I think Jordan holds on to Palestine, because Israel's encroachment and their larger bargaining power. Egypt and Jordan are only problematized by the fact that they have compromised themselves due to expedience in a middle-east that has US backing Israel. I don't even care about the historical 'boundaries' of Palestine or that they call it Palestine, so much as the escape from the bureaucratic and fascist nightmare of what they live under now. It is obvious that they have different values than Israelis, so it is enough. It would be the same if there were Jews who began to disagree with the Israeli state very strongly and wanted to escape into an Israel II.

And it is not like there is a choice of state versus anarchism. At the current stage, there is no way to shift into anarchism. It is not as if that is the course of events that would occur were it not for people who intervene to 'believe' in the Palestinian state. I don't believe this anymore than I believe that Iraq would choose a more liberal society, if I was against the US's occupation of that country.

It seems you are using pessimism to wipe the blood of the Israelis hands.

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

DD5 — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:53:51 GMT

John Ess,

Look, this entire conflict is nothing but Statism 101, which is why you should consider the possibility that you are a victim of yet another brilliant statist hoax.

About 75% of Palestine is actually modern day Jordan, so what the F#?K? When the PLO actually dared to imply their intended consistency on the matter, King Hussein slaughtered them indiscriminately. It's been quiet there ever since. Your comparison, therefore, between Jordan and the occupied territories is invalid then. You should at least imagine how a persistent Jordan/Palestinian conflict would look like for a fair comparison.

Both West Bank and Gaza were under Jordanian and Egyptian control respectively until 1966. Why weren't they granted a State back then? Who even gave a crap about them back then?

On the Israeli side, the entire Zionist ideology is nothing but another badly manufactured nationalist anti-capitalist ideology designed to indoctrinate Israelis that the solution to their historical [statist originating] problems was simply statism of their own.

So this entire conflict is nothing but a statist manufactured setup that you are falling for. The Palestinian supporters (alleged peaceful or violent) are not supporting any solution that would improve the real state of the Palestinians. So you want to blame the hardship of the Palestinians on Israelis, go ahead. I say you're committing a kind of "broken window" fallacy. You react to what you see without grasping the far more complex reality of the unseen.

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

John Ess — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:37:49 GMT

They obviously are not close to Hamas anymore, but they supported Hamas in the past over the more secular, and thus stronger, PLO. Neither of these groups are necessarily good (for their own people, just like Israel doesn't make good decisions in the interest of Jewish security either), but they are effects of the occupation. Either through direct effect or through subsidization (like Hamas).

There are laws and indeed also boycotts against Israel. Many people do not like Palestinians using Israeli goods, buying their products in stores, working for Israelis, or doing business with them in some other way. (though many working-class Israelis feel cheap Palestinian labor, one of the reasons the occupation isn't as harsh as it could be, is also a great evil, not unlike workers in this country thinking Mexicans are taking their jobs). Many times they are forced to, because it is too difficult now to make their own products and Israelis have greater economic privileges. They believe economic means will help end dependence on and dominance of the Israeli state. It is not good, but it is in my opinion contingent on the occupation itself.

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

nirgrahamUK — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:57:45 GMT

John, I'm wondering whether you have confused Hamas with Fatah, in terms of who Israel is more diplomatically close to...

Did you know that in the Palestinian Authority there is legislation prohibiting 'foreign land ownership', in particular.... Israeli's, if a Palestinian sells property to an Israeli, he can receive the death penalty. You can search news reports......

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

John Ess — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:37:01 GMT

DD5: I think that it is unfair to both Jews and Palestinians. Since both are victims, at least some of them, to the policies. So I am not speaking here just of external problems but internal ones as well.

It's manufactured by statism; agreed. Every state is as bad; disagreed. Some are worse and some are better. There is no proof that Palestine would be better or worse in terms of politics, but I don't think they would be any worse than say Jordan or Egypt. Which at the very least allow food and trade into the country and there is very little malnutrition or lack of educaton. And Jordan and Egypt may liberalize very soon, maybe sooner if they didn't walk on egg shells nor were under US supervision. As circumstances would obviously change their luck. We know from history that economic sanctions tend to lead to fascism and a strengthening of extremism. Israel's money to Hamas in the past has also lead to a mess as well in their desperation to support someone like them over secular groups. I think they depend on these groups more than other Arab countries, because Arab countries can usually afford secular schooling and services with a functioning economy and society. At the very least, Palestinians would be able to go abroad and be educated by good universities without being blocked from returning ever again. Which, again, would lead to greater industrialization and the division of labor. To say nothing of providing basic health services for themselves... whether it is free market or not.

As for coercion, I think their absurd bureaucratic system and demolition of housing is enough. This doesn't exist in very many other states to such an extreme degree. It's specifically to keep property in the hands of those the state likes. There would be majorly different property titles if this did not go on... usually for some collective punishment. Meaning your house gets taken out because someone next to you looks like the guy who someone heard shot a rocket. As someone said, too, deregulation would be better, too, but in many cases things like kibbutzim and other businesses are too also run "privately" by those the state likes. And obviously some Jews, say of the wrong denomination or class in Israeli society, are usually out of luck in these decisions. This also seems absurd. Because they have a socialist society, but it is nonetheless not equal even among Jews. If I was a poorer Jew, I would be understandable angry. Though, I think, ironically, that many of these people nonetheless love Likud (like poor folks here love Republicans who could give a crap about them). So...

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

LeeO — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:32:39 GMT

Just compare this man with people like Dan Quayle, Joe Biden, Sarah Palin, Barack Obama, John McCain, or James Inhofe. All these American politicans look like clowns and buffoons compared to this man from a tiny moderately wealthy country .

Sarah Palin is the worst. Although I have mostly detached myself emotionally from all the idiotic politicians out there, her attempt to become the "face" of tea-party movement still makes me angry. Many tea-partiers actually understand that free markets are good and government is bad, which automatically makes them 100 times smarter than Palin. It looks like the powers that be are setting her up as the next Republican nomination for President so that Obama can serve another term. Maybe I'll move to Israel....

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

Marko — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:19:54 GMT

If it is truth then you'll have no problem substantiating it.

It is telling that the only way you can remain an irrelevant sectarian droning about how both sides are equally guilty only by mispresenting the facts.

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

DD5 — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:07:25 GMT

"[INFLAMMATORY ACCUSATION DELETED]"

And you're delusional. What's wrong? A little inconvenient truth to disturb your previous justification for taking sides? This is the part when you should envy Bloom for not having to relinquish his statist views.

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

Prateek Sanjay — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:58:56 GMT

LeeO, that's one thing we have to hand to the man.

He is a good speaker.

Not in the sense of the evasive, charismatic, wool-over-your eyes political speaker.

But a man who can articulate positions properly, speak directly and assertively, and address matters with a thoughtful scholarly perspective.

Just compare this man with people like Dan Quayle, Joe Biden, Sarah Palin, Barack Obama, John McCain, or James Inhofe. All these American politicans look like clowns and buffoons compared to this man from a tiny moderately wealthy country .

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

DD5 — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:53:07 GMT

"If states have no ability to arbitrarily claim territory, which I don't dispute, then Israel still owns no land since that is how they acquired land"

Rightly so, but then the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is nothing but a statist manufactured conflict.

"Maybe there is no question and they own none of it. But at the very least, it is still in question."

It makes no more sense to talk about Palestinian right to some land then Israeli then. What else could you have implied by saying that most of the land was acquired by coercion? Or in other words, stolen. There is no way to justify that claim in its totality without resorting to some statist theory of property rights.

"And thus the cart is before the horse in talking about tax cuts."

Since we live in a statist world, I don't see how this can possibly be relevant to just Israel and not also to every other State currently on the map of the entire Globe.

"And it's not even the land that they occupy. But all the property damage, that is obviously a crime, against people who want to live there but fail to live up to lame governmental bureaucratic standards."

The fact is that the Palestinians want to simply establish their own tyrranical State. This fact alone makes their side no more morally superior then that of Israel.

Not only that, but even from a sort of purely humanist point of view, I'm not at all convinced that the lives of the people currently living under occupation would be better off under a "free" Palestine. At least as compared to before the Intifada of the 80's. Please provide me your case to as why their lives would be better off.

" I don't understand what you are saying"

Somehow anti-Israel is being conflated with anti-State. This is a fatal mistake. Supporting the various Palestinians liberation movements is actually a very extreme statist position.

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

Marko — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:48:30 GMT

Nearly all of the land in the hands of Israeli property owners today was unoccupied unused land.

[INFLAMMATORY ACCUSATION DELETED]

Most land in the hands of Israeli property owners used to be owned by private induviduals of Palestine extraction that had been expropriated.

It is the most land now in the "public ownership" of Israel that used to be unoccupied and unused.

Re: Binyamin Netanhayu is awesome.

LeeO — Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:36:32 GMT

I just watched Netanyahu's speech at the United Nations from last September. I agree that he is a very good speaker, and I was happy to hear him call the UN Human Rights Council "a misnamed institution if there ever was one."