General

Re: The Race Card

Torsten — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:12:01 GMT

".......I get the exact opposite. I'm black and female, so whenever I tell other black people about libertarianism and the free market, and I that, no, I don't support Obama,lol, they flip out. They think I'm "trying to be white." This has happens ever since was in grade school; everybody though I was white b/c I didn't speak slang, b/c my mom grew up in Grenada where the British eductaion was prominent, so poor grammar was never accepted in my home. But I'd prefer to be free, I do not want anything from a government that has enslaved and oppressed blacks is what I say to those people who freak out on me,lol....."

It is obvious that libertarianism (or for that matter any individualist philosophy) is almost exclusively a White domain. Ethnic (or familial, religious) solidarity plays some role in politics almost everywhere. It seems however to be much stronger in Black people in Africa and elsewhere.
i.e. While James Shikwati is considered a libertarian by many, he also takes a communitarian stance in many ways.

"...You should point out that Obama must have millions of white supporters, and in many more numbers than black ones, or he wouldn't have enough people backing him to beat Hillary. Anyway, that's some weird logic fallacious to use -- but I'm guessing a lot of them don't really think like that, they just don't care much about politics and are joking with you... That should explain some of the responses the poster got -- a lot of people don't know how and don't like to think and argue...."

Concerning Obama having White Supporters(Democrats) - in connection with arguments on "playing the race card". I'd reply to that is actually not Obama himself doing it that much, at least I don't see that. Or is he saying something in the line of: "I'm Black, please vote for me." Isn't it rather his White supporters trying to play the Race Card using him? They'd do so by implying:"You have to vote democrats, because we are politically correct. If you do not vote Democrats, you must be racist, because we are the ones with the "minority" candidate".

Re: The Race Card

BlackSheep — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:48:51 GMT

Dylangal:
I don't support Obama,lol, they flip out. They think I'm "trying to be white."

You should point out that Obama must have millions of white supporters, and in many more numbers than black ones, or he wouldn't have enough people backing him to beat Hillary. Anyway, that's some weird logic fallacious to use -- but I'm guessing a lot of them don't really think like that, they just don't care much about politics and are joking with you... That should explain some of the responses the poster got -- a lot of people don't know how and don't like to think and argue.

To the poster, the important point to make is that you agree with the other guy on the ends (maybe not exactly, but whatever), the disagreement is just on how to achieve them. Clearly these people are talking from an utilitarian POV, and if you start justifying yourself by using liberty, they'll think you're insensible to the poor, and will justify their position based on slavery of the past, the rich people owning all the good lands or whatever. And it's very important you show them the unintented consequences of their positions as well. I'm talking here of addressing ordinary people -- dunno about commies and etc.

Re: The Race Card

Dylangal — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 05:04:43 GMT

I get the exact opposite. I'm black and female, so whenever I tell other black people about libertarianism and the free market, and I that, no, I don't support Obama,lol, they flip out. They think I'm "trying to be white." This has happens ever since was in grade school; everybody though I was white b/c I didn't speak slang, b/c my mom grew up in Grenada where the British eductaion was prominent, so poor grammar was never accepted in my home. But I'd prefer to be free, I do not want anything from a government that has enslaved and oppressed blacks is what I say to those people who freak out on me,lol.

Re: The Race Card

krazy kaju — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 03:06:57 GMT

i r thread winner:

Re: The Race Card

Torsten — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:56:36 GMT

Telpeurion:
Those of you talking about "racial qualities" such as having large families and other behaviours are falling for the Pat Buchanan propaganda. Race has very little to do with actual behaviour. The next target is "culture", which itself is never in stasis or universal.

Culture is a function of race. Someone even put it into an equation like f(x,race) = culture / actual behaviour. Since I am working with Blacks on a daily basis, I only can shake my had, when I read "Race has very little to do with actual behaviour", because what I can observe is definitly otherwise. That the behaviour differs doesn't come as surprise, as human behaviour is managed via hormones and these are literally in the blood of people. Knowledge about race and behaviour is useful to me for making decisions in business. And I think most people doing business in Africa will actually confirm what I'm saying.

Telpeurion:
So when Mr. Buchanan and other racialists say that the West is doomed because Hispanics are breeding faster, it is complete nonsense. It is complete ignorance of evolution and mutation. The humans of 300 years ago were different than the humans of today, and the humans of the future will also look different.

If I'd use a scale for the positions you assign to Buchanan and yours the scale would strongly tend to the Buchanan side. This has nothing to do with "Hispanics breeding faster", but with the fact that if the racial make up of a population changes, the culture will do so as well and this will also mean a rapid change in institutions. If the present trends are not turned around the US will become more like Mexico as it would like to be without a neighbour like the US.

The cultural, political and economic differences between mainly White countries, Black countries and East Asian countries were not a coincides. And the strongest factor seems to be the racial identity of people. There is also a strong correlation between propensity crime and race. However there is another factor one needs to consider and these are social institutions and I think this explains the difference in crime rates between for instances countries like South Africa, Botswana and Malawi. Malawi is the poorest of them all, but has the lowest crime rate. South Africa is the richest, with the highest crime rates. It should be added that urbanization/westernization of Blacks has been progressed the most of all those countries.

Statements like "everything is different", "nothing is static", "ignorance of evolution" are actually meaningless. Exercises in race denial also lack any credibility, since the egalitarians hardly put their money were their mouth is. If the would become active doing business in Africa they would quickly learn that what they were preaching is quite a bunch of political correct nonsense, which can further your carreer in the bureaucracies of Western countries, but will be deadly once applied anywhere else.

Re: The Race Card

Jon Irenicus — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:30:00 GMT

I agree with JC for once.

-Jon

Re: The Race Card

Anonymous Coward — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:57:43 GMT

Andrew:
Most of modern civilization (science, democracy, philosophy) comes from the bowls of Europe.

I suggest you read The Mainspring of Human Progress, especially the part about the first and second human attempts at freedom, and then decide if Europe really was the main influence shaping human destiny.

Re: The Race Card

Kakugo — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:53:44 GMT

This is an extremely interesting topic.

"The most recent one that really struck the wrong cord with me were the comments about race and my upbringing. To imply that I am in some way not entitled to an opinion because I am white and have been fortunate and lucky enough to have a nice upbringing really ticks me off."

When I was a child and my parents sent me to a Catholic school run by nuns They kept us in line using that centuries old stratagem, namely guilt. It was all about "you have no idea how lucky you are" and they tried to make us feel guilty about pretty much everything. When I read in the papers the latest victimology piece about race/wealth/education/whatever I merely shake my head and think about the nuns trying to have us eat that disgusting pork (I can assure you it was barely edible) by saying "don't you there are children starving in Ethiopia?". I can assure you that I was a very guilt-ridden child. I would have grown up into a guilt-ridden man if I had not had this insane passion for reading: I used to steal the various periodicals my father left laying around. That was how I discovered that children were starving in Ethiopia not because I was not eating my half-baked slice of pork but because their own government was starving them to death through insane politics.

"But, do you all understand my point? What do you say in a situation like that? I want the best for EVERYONE, but I don't believe that the government can create that. Somehow that point never gets across."

I used to be very idealistic in my youth; I too wanted the best for everyone. That's a great ideal for young people but sooner or later you'll realize that the number of persons you can help out is limited. If you are a very gifted pharmacologist you can come up with a drug that will save thousands, perhaps millions. If you are a wealthy person you can contribute funds to worthy causes. If you are a pious person you can offer desperate people a shoulder to cry on and perhaps hope for tomorrow. But if you are an average Joe what can you do? You resources are limited, perhaps you are not doing so well. You are not particulary pious, nor patient or skilled at anything. You see death and desperation all around you. You have to make the best you can with the time and skills you are being given, that's all. Start small, even a small gesture will make the world a better place.

"Has anyone ever dealt with this situation? Besides the fact that it is basically a personal attack, what they are trying to say is: "You only promote liberty because you know that you won't have it that bad without the government's help. Other people, namely blacks, hispanics, etc will suffer and ultimately won't be equal. People will die and the whole world will explode (okay, I made that last sentence up but who hasn't heard some version of that before)."

That's the core of the problem. Governments have always played the role of knights in shiny armours coming to the rescue. They rob to the rich to give to the poor. They "distribute" wealth. Problem is they are not so selfless. The government requires something in exchange: they are not John Frumm. A political commentator (I don't remember his/her name) once said "government wants three things from you: money, votes and blood in that particular order". Impoverished minorities of course have no money to give: that would be unethical in welfare state. But they have a couple of very useful economic roles to play: first they can provide cheap and plentiful unskilled manpower to the mixed-system economy. Second, even if they are unemployed they have a very useful role to play: how can you lower taxes when there are so many needy persons around? How can you ask for a cut in the number of social workers? We are on the good road, we just need a tiny bit more money and hiring a few more persons. This has been going on forever and works every single time. On the "votes and blood" area we need not to say anything. But there's one more role to be played. The Romans had a golden rule for their empire: divide et impera, divide them and rule them. Pit the white against the black, the have against the have not, the car driver against the oil company... the golden rule still works after all these years.

Re: The Race Card

JCFolsom — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:04:53 GMT

Telpeurion:
Those of you talking about "racial qualities" such as having large families and other behaviours are falling for the Pat Buchanan propaganda. Race has very little to do with actual behaviour.

That has yet to be firmly established. Indeed, much extant evidence is to the contrary.

Telpeurion:
So when Mr. Buchanan and other racialists say that the West is doomed because Hispanics are breeding faster, it is complete nonsense.

That bit is absolutely true. Indeed, hispanic culture is pretty much a Western Culture, and every Mexican alive today except some rare tribes up in the mountains is at least a good chunk Spaniard. Spanish culture may not be Buchanan's grumpy, hard-drinking Irish Catholic descent, but it is still Western.

Telpeurion:
It is complete ignorance of evolution and mutation. The humans of 300 years ago were different than the humans of today, and the humans of the future will also look different.

That statement betrays a complete ignorance of evolution and mutation. Humans of 300 or even 3,000 years ago, mere evolutionary blinks of an eye, were pretty well identical to what we have today, excepting environmental factors, and even in our modern culture people tend to hang out with folks what look like them. Mutations my foot. It takes A LONG TIME and a LOT of luck to get any significant mutations established in a population.

Re: The Race Card

Telpeurion — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:28:16 GMT

Those of you talking about "racial qualities" such as having large families and other behaviours are falling for the Pat Buchanan propaganda. Race has very little to do with actual behaviour. The next target is "culture", which itself is never in stasis or universal.

So when Mr. Buchanan and other racialists say that the West is doomed because Hispanics are breeding faster, it is complete nonsense. It is complete ignorance of evolution and mutation. The humans of 300 years ago were different than the humans of today, and the humans of the future will also look different.

Re: The Race Card

Stephen — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:34:20 GMT

We all know where you`re coming from. We`ve all had some self-righteous fool mouth off to us disrespectfully. In fact, I`m ashamed to admit it, I used to be that type of person. I think the reason behind this is that we all have an ideological identity. We see ourselves in the world as being symbollically for some ideas and against other ideas. When it comes to ideological issues, they aren`t interested in the truth. They`ve already decided what idea they are for. They just look for reasons to support it or ways to stop you from attacking it.

Personally, I think there`s only one way to respond to this. When people engage in ad hominems, it is an appeal to moral cowardice. They are expecting that you will back down because you don`t want to see yourself in a negative light or others to see you in a negative light. You should respond in a way which lets them know that you don`t take their attack seriously, and you should appeal to their moral cowardice as well. It`s the only language they really understand in an ideological argument. You should be firm, confident (cocky even), and disrespectful if they are.

As for race cards. They are always double edged swords that work both ways. Pose the question,”Why should it be the case that I don`t get an opinion because I`m white? Why not the other way around? Obviously there is no fundamental difference.” ”Maybe I am a better judge than you in these matters because I had a better upbringing.”

Just my thoughts.

Re: The Race Card

scineram — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:42:58 GMT

dreamingoffreedominma:
- if you are against state run education, you are against eductaion

Depending on who you are.

dreamingoffreedominma:
- I am a white male and have no idea how freedom would work for blacks, hispanics, etc because I was fortune enough to have a nice upbringing, supportive family and, oh, I am a white male (in case I didn't say that already; apparently we can't have opinions)

So they would have to figure it out for themselves.

dreamingoffreedominma:
- liberty means no equality

Thank You, my Lord!

dreamingoffreedominma:
- how do we care for our poor without government

In whatever way we want.

dreamingoffreedominma:
- monopolies would take over the world

For there are no 210+ monopolies ruling the world now.

dreamingoffreedominma:
- libertarians just talk, they never actually do anything

Not all of them, just the agorists.

dreamingoffreedominma:
- because I have never actually worked in a certain environment (let's say public schools) I have no idea, nor do I have the right, to criticize that area

I do not criticize them, just want them abolished.

Re: The Race Card

Solomon — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:57:20 GMT

dreamingoffreedominma:
The most recent one that really struck the wrong cord with me were the comments about race and my upbringing. To imply that I am in some way not entitled to an opinion because I am white and have been fortunate and lucky enough to have a nice upbringing really ticks me off.

Firstly there is no direct counter-argument that would be copasetic to your interlocutor because such claims (like all politically correct attacks) are fundamentally anti-rational, said only to obfuscate people's thinking.

I am a somewhat indelicate and asocial individual so am not especially skilled in handling such situations, but I would recommend replying that their "unfortunate" state of affairs is not a necessary actuality but in fact the result of and perpetuated by state planning; also explain that you have no intention of building, or rather razing, Rome in a day but prefer that the state be downsized over time to allow people addicted to government aid to recover. At any rate, act at your own discretion.

Re: The Race Card

JCFolsom — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:16:52 GMT

Andrew:
Different races tend to have different qualities. I find it hard to believe a fact such as that, and not be looked at as a racist by others. I think the whole " white liberty" thing is the charred remains of imperialism and old race theory that other people needed to be" freed" from their culture. Native peoples or other non- Anglo Europeans despise the imperial "white man's" rules and then associated liberty with oppression because Europeans came up with most theories of modern government, or the race superiority complex that anyone who cannot understand liberty does not deserve it. And the " white person" was the primary advocate of liberty.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by all this. That being said, I will base a rant off of it anyway.

{rant}

Well, now some cultures just aren't worth the dung-fires that fuel them. I always find it amusing how "enlightened" and "tolerant" thinkers basically treat people from primitive cultures like animals. Television censors, for instance, will fine a station for displaying the nudity of people from modern cultures, but that nature documentaries are free to show the elaborate phallic jewelry and wrapping of various tribesmen, and dangling mammaries that have never known a bra all around. These "tolerant" people like to say that we should not interfere, not contaminate the culture. As if these particular humans are better off living until 30 losing half their kids in infancy, plagued with worms and various terrible forms of creeping crud and clubbing each other for sport. Yessir, such a valuable culture it must be preserved.

How about we let them decide, huh? Let them know what's available and then let them choose. Strangely enough, whenever that happens, such cultures eventually die. Why? Because living as a primitive sucks. But the precious, tolerant progressives want to make sure that somewhere in the world, some people still live in "harmony" with "nature". Because, in the end, to the "progressive" each person is a part of the global community, rather than an individual.

As for the "I'm not a racist" comment, you might as well not bother. Such statements are, as in this case, only made before making a statement some will view as racist. I certainly understand the desire for disclaimers, though. I actually think it's getting better, but even in America where, unlike pretty much every other industrialized nation on earth, you won't get thrown in prison for saying something perceived as racist or "inciting hatred", consequences can be dire for breaking PC rules.

{/rant}

Re: The Race Card

Jon Irenicus — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:49:38 GMT

Cleopatra was white too - she was a Ptolemy, i.e. part of the Greek haegemons that came to rule Egypt. Egypt a couple of thousand years ago was different to Egypt today.

-Jon