General

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

Paul — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 13:06:35 GMT

"Mises would say it is because he is just jealous fo the guy ahead of him or something. It is far too simplistic, and reduces all people down to juveniles."

John Lennon said so himself: "♫ I'm just a jealous guy ♫"

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

Prateek Sanjay — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:30:04 GMT

Epicurus Ibn Kalhoun:

Honestly I found it to be absolute drivel. It boils down to "if you are anti capitalist, you are just jealous of people that are better than you." He makes the ignorant assumption that it is purely a meritocracy. And of course, no matter how succesful the socialist, he is just jealous of someone above him.

Im gona go ahead and say Mises should probably just keep his opinion to himself.

It's no less false that many "right-wingers" and "libertarians" just do so out of pure selfishness, a desire to protect status, and in some cases sheer racism.

I am not even going to pretend otherwise. It's same for all sides.

In matters of serious debate, it is absolutely essential to weed out those with purely emotional anger or bias. On both sides. You could say that between the free market vs. interventionism debate and the capitalism vs. socialism debate, there's 10% of serious honest thinkers on both sides, and the rest are running their mouths.

I do agree with you that it need not be ulterior motives always.

It's not selfishness that makes a man want to debate the demerits of industrial ethanol being price-fixed, and commenting on how it leads to huge raw material shortages and fall in quality in various chemical and rubber companies, that ultimately reflects in worse quality of production of various goods, and workers and management earning less from their poorer productivity. In fact, what is it about the few serious libertarians that even the price control on ethanol or the industrial policy requirement that asks steel manufacturers to have a shop floor of a certain arbitrary size makes them want to come out and address these issues directly? What selfish interest would he have, that he bothers about it? Why was the Foundation For Economic Education so worried about timber price controls?

Just the same way, there are many socialists from the best and most well developed First World nations, with all of the populace's needs met, who only advocate worker-controlled production from purely the perspective of industrial efficiency, and they are often the first to rebuke socialists who think socialism is about altruism (Marxists oppose the welfare state).

Just the same, when we all very well know that daytime power usage is at peak load on the generator and is more costly to maintain, we know there's a common sense reason why it is more expensive to use electricity in day time rather than night time. If the power company is not meeting such costs, there will be power shortages. Yet, if such pricing were used, it would invite voter outrage, who'll demand serious cuts in pricing and demand that the state government take over the power company. And when they finally have the low prices they want, they suffer long hours of power shortage. If there is suggestion from anybody to revert to the old system, sharp editorials about greed are written. Are those editorials really about genuine concerns or out of sheer miserliness and selfishness?

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

Jackson — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 07:27:57 GMT

"My mistake. I had to remove Bureaucracy and Omnipotent. Anti-Cap stays thankfully."

psh. they can't stop utorrent and a seedbox.

welcome to the age of post scarcity in information, Libertarian Press.

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

Jackson — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 07:25:13 GMT

"ou took my "succesful a socialist" to mean "succesful at socialism" it would appear. I mean, even if a man is highly succesful (like say John Lennon or someone) and still does not support capitalism"

no, I didn't misunderstand you.

"Mises would say it is because he is just jealous fo the guy ahead of him or something. It is far too simplistic, and reduces all people down to juveniles."

again, that's an oversimplification that borders on a misinterpretation of the work which I tried to clarify in my previous post.

I'd have to reread the work to make sure I'm right, but I believe the 'x hates capitalism because he is jealous' only takes up much space in the first part of the book. the second and fourth parts of the work flesh out his ideas far beyond envy. these sections deal with the roots of why an individual would feel capitalism is unfair, which would lead to either an academic or emotional disdain for the idea.

"the animosity the selfless, successful socialist feels when facing the ridiculousness of his egalitarian dogma causes him to become embittered and jealous

Jealous of who, himself?"

if I were the type to proofread my posts, i would have left out jealous and ended the sentence with embittered. scratch jealous from that sentence.

"In short, your psycho-analysis is far to general, petty, and unimaginative."

that is the elephant in the room with the anti-capitalist mentality. as much as I am a, for lack of a better word, disciple of Rothbard and Mises, I am also a disciple of Thomas Szasz, as well. the anti-capitalist mentality borders dangerously on psycho-analysis. and all good psycho-analysis is general and petty...but what is more, it is nothing more than an elaborate ad hominem disguised as medicine.

I think there are a lot of causal ties between idealogies and other traits (the jealous poor / embittered academics and anti-capitalism, women and totalitarian / paternalistic political leanings, homosexuals and totalitarian / egalitarian political leanings, etc.), but I hesitate to draw these causal connections because I am not a level 20 kensai/praxeologist...at least not yet. and if I were to do so, my ideas would definitely land on the side of just-so theories and psycho-babble.

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

Merlin — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 07:15:39 GMT

Epicurus Ibn Kalhoun:
I mean, even if a man is highly succesful (like say John Lennon or someone) and still does not support capitalism, Mises would say it is because he is just jealous fo the guy ahead of him or something.

Actually Mises makes there a case for entertainers. Mr. Lennon and such other walking over-inflated egos like himself fit as a glove.

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

chloe732 — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 04:44:24 GMT

Jeffrey,

Can you provide details? Will Bureaucracy and Omnipotent Government be restored?

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

DanielMuff — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 04:33:36 GMT

Epicurus Ibn Kalhoun:

[...] It boils down to [...]

Which to say that you are making a hasty generalization.

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

Bert — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:39:19 GMT

I thoroughly enjoyed The Anti-Capitalistic Mentality. One of my favorite quotes is from it:

People may disagree on the question of whether everybody ought to study economics seriously. But one thing is certain. A man who publicly talks or writes about the opposition between capitalism and socialism without having fully familiarized himself with all that economics has to say about these issues is an irresponsible babbler.

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

jtucker — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:04:08 GMT

My mistake. I had to remove Bureaucracy and Omnipotent. Anti-Cap stays thankfully.

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

jtucker — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:02:19 GMT

I guess everyone sees (from the blog) that we had to removed this today - forced to by the "Libertarian Press"

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

cognitivist — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 02:20:58 GMT

You don't have to believe capital is a zero-sum game to see the inherent inequality in the system. And you dont have to be fully egalitarian to think things should be a little more even.

For some of these guys its insane and utopian to advocate positive liberties to substitute for lack of negative ones. Some for mathematical reasons, some for praxeological ones. Some for a priori, or even religious reasons (however secularism is followed religiously by some, ironically).

Besides, to some, forget the regular man who is uninterested in politics and wants immediate gratification. as most ideologically-and-spiritually-uncommitted people are, in fact not interested in our theoretical gobblygoop and "one day, a bright bright time in the Future..." Libertarian apologizing for the conservative-minarchist Libertarian alternative of Now offering the only visible alternative to Business as Usual. The Democratic Socialists of America organization has gotten more national airtime, ironically on the Glenn Beck show, than most Austro-libertarian and left-libertarian, individual and social anarchist leaders themselves could dream in one lifetime.

Which, in fact, is quite disappointing. Half a century is not a conspiracy. Someone's doing it wrong!

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

Laotzu del Zinn — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 22:46:14 GMT

I highly recommend The Anti-Capitalist Mentality. it's a joy to read

That's what I am saying, I read it. It was drivel; right-wing bias loaded on every page full of generalizations and ad hominems against metaphoric people.

he more successful anti-capitalists rail against private property and trade because of its supposedly inherent unfairness. they believe capitalism is a zero-sum game. if one man succeeds, it is at the expense of another. if one man prospers, he must have come about his wealth in an unjust manner. the root of this is the belief of utter equality..

You took my "succesful a socialist" to mean "succesful at socialism" it would appear. I mean, even if a man is highly succesful (like say John Lennon or someone) and still does not support capitalism, Mises would say it is because he is just jealous fo the guy ahead of him or something. It is far too simplistic, and reduces all people down to juveniles.

You don't have to believe capital is a zero-sum game to see the inherent inequality in the system. And you dont have to be fully egalitarian to think things should be a little more even.

the animosity the selfless, successful socialist feels when facing the ridiculousness of his egalitarian dogma causes him to become embittered and jealous

Jealous of who, himself? "I am doing very well, I wish I could help others do more like me" is embittered and jealous?

Ya, you keep fooling yourself.

In short, your psycho-analysis is far to general, petty, and unimaginative.

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

Jackson — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 22:20:54 GMT

"It boils down to "if you are anti capitalist, you are just jealous of people that are better than you.""

that's a good summary.

and it's pretty much spot-on.

"And of course, no matter how successful the socialist, he is just jealous of someone above him."

I was going to say this was a bit of an oversimplification, but I believe it is more correct to say that this is just a pure misinterpretation. the more successful anti-capitalists rail against private property and trade because of its supposedly inherent unfairness. they believe capitalism is a zero-sum game. if one man succeeds, it is at the expense of another. if one man prospers, he must have come about his wealth in an unjust manner. the root of this is the belief of utter equality...that as we are all equal and one man is just as good as another, it makes no sense that one man can gain vast amounts of wealth while another well-meaning man starves. the animosity the selfless, successful socialist feels when facing the ridiculousness of his egalitarian dogma causes him to become embittered and jealous - it causes him to be a hater. and haters gonna hate.

I highly recommend The Anti-Capitalist Mentality. it's a joy to read.

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

cognitivist — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 17:26:05 GMT

Prepare for me to deviate slightly from the argument centered on capitalism and anti-capitalism.

I'm highly suspicious of the theories that key-in governmentless society where everyone has ab initio equal bargaining power and equal property rights. That sounds like Marx's non-government Communism in the most general overview, which to me cannot be brought into being on a large scale. Anarchism happens where people want it and where it is feasible, just like any other system of governance (or whatever). Anarchist Catalona is the best in process example of something similar to what The Communist Manifesto advocates. Soviet Russia's Constitution was the best example of what the 50's and 60's UK Labour Party actually practiced in governance. Market Socialism with Chinese Characteristics implemented by the Chinese seems to be closer to what Obama's Democrats advocate than what gets translated into practice here in the United States, and etc. I suppose that only a certain percentage, not the entire program, gets put into practice on society.

In any case, the prescription is that, if we treat each other nicely, most of us will be happy in utilitiarianism. In either the individualist case or the collectivist one we expect our neighbor not to screw us over. I don't see how a collectivist society made up of (mostly) good people who respect each other would necessarily be much different from an individualist society with mostly good seeds and a few bad apples. Therefore, I think watchmen are essential and watchmen for the watchmen aren't necessarily illegitimate. And again I cannot digest anarchism in perhaps the most appreciative way some can, nor can I explore conceptual arguments on anarchism without at least half of my thoughts counterarguing what's being said.

The point I'm trying to make is, like you have stated, a certain group of citizens feel above the average joe. And perhaps they have a right to. What we do not advocate, as Libertarians, is that they should exercise that right, but simply have the choice to.

Throw away the sanctifying and apple-polishing about the awesomeness of choice and just arrive at the common-sense conclusion that this group of people should not be snobs. All of the sudden your attitude is in agreement with the attitude of Communists.

Surely, there has to be a reason why Anarchism happens in small pockets, and Socialism works best and most credibly in countries that cover small geographic locations. Homogeneity!

Re: The anti-capitalistic mentality

Laotzu del Zinn — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 16:28:37 GMT

Honestly I found it to be absolute drivel. It boils down to "if you are anti capitalist, you are just jealous of people that are better than you." He makes the ignorant assumption that it is purely a meritocracy. And of course, no matter how succesful the socialist, he is just jealous of someone above him.

Im gona go ahead and say Mises should probably just keep his opinion to himself.