General

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

CrazyCoot — Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:11:16 GMT

Can someone refuse military service in exchange for giving up voting privileges?

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

Merlin — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:03:50 GMT

Who is going to force a Swiss man to fight if there is no Swiss army to force him?

ewwwwww............

didn't think about that, did you.....

So modern Iceland is anarchic, as it has no army? Or Costa Rica?

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

SirThinkALot — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:03:28 GMT

Ah that makes sense. I knew Jefferson was opposed to a National bank, and there are pleanty of other quotes of his to support that.

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

Laotzu del Zinn — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:50:59 GMT

It's most likely a composite quote attributed to him based off his general tendencies. He was opposed to private banks. But it is unlikely he ever said those words in particular.

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

SirThinkALot — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:43:21 GMT

This quote is a well-known fake. Of course, Jefferson was against central banking, but the use of the terms "inflation" and "deflation" (twentieth-century nomenclature) give this one away. Try as you may, you'll never be able to source this quote. Trust me, because I tried once.

Hmmm...really? I always assumed it was genuine, but that was probably because it sounds like the kind of thing Jefferson would say. Although I suppose you are correct that the use of terms 'inflation' and 'deflation' would indicate its not.

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

limitgov — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:15:31 GMT

"Lets take the only militia I see today: Switzerland. People are conscripted and forced to train for two weeks a year, stuffed with an assault rifle and then, god forbid, thrown before the enemy should the need arise."

Who is going to force a Swiss man to fight if there is no Swiss army to force him?

ewwwwww............

didn't think about that, did you.....

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

Merlin — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:06:52 GMT

They do have conscientious objectors in Switzerland. As well, In Switzerland, virtually every Jehovah's Witness is exempted from military service.

Granted, but its still a far cry from the british (to take the first guys who applied this) system. It's still murder if you let every third would-be victim escape. And than again, do you believe they would be as generous with objector in a near-war scenario?

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

Redmond — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 19:17:32 GMT

Lets take the only militia I see today: Switzerland. People are conscripted and forced to train for two weeks a year, stuffed with an assault rifle and then, god forbid, thrown before the enemy should the need arise.

From Wiki

The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personal weapons, at home. Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. They usually receive initial training orders at the age of 18 for military conscription. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable.^[3] Annually, approximately 20,000 persons are trained in basic training for a duration from 18 to 21 weeks.

They do have conscientious objectors in Switzerland. As well, In Switzerland, virtually every Jehovah's Witness is exempted from military service.

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

Lewis S. — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:51:07 GMT

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

David Sherin — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:40:36 GMT

I remember hearing a lecture by Robert LeFevre about the history of the Dollar in the US or something like that. Anyway, he said that on average, The Treasury's reserves in gold and silver were only about 25% of the outstanding paper currency they issued ($20 was about equal to one ounce of gold, but LeFevre is saying basically that the Treasury would have $80 outstanding for every ounce of gold).

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

Aristippus — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:29:44 GMT

Ah ok, I was using the term to denote a voluntary organisation for defence, not conscription. Benjamin Franklin's militia was certainly like this. When they went on campaign, Franklin put out an advert for supplies, wagons, horses etc. to be borrowed for the duration of their absence. He acquired what he needed through voluntary donors, and marked down what everyone had given in case they needed to be compensated for the loss of their property during the campaign. Since they only needed such supplies ad hoc, the militia was a much more economical option for their needs (of course it was likely nowhere near as capable as a trained standing army). I agree with you, though, that the division of labor makes standing armies attractive.

Jefferson was probably thinking of standing armies such as that of the Romans, which was used as a means for dictatorship. Even the British standing army was relatively small in his day (mercenaries were used extensively in wartime, however).

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

Merlin — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:01:05 GMT

Lets take the only militia I see today: Switzerland. People are conscripted and forced to train for two weeks a year, stuffed with an assault rifle and then, god forbid, thrown before the enemy should the need arise. The British army, with all its moral guilt of killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan, at the very least only sends people to get killed voluntarily. It seem to me to be the 101 of a more just defense system.

And in general, I don’t think that a militia could be staffed by any other mean other than conscription. A voluntarily created force is a guerilla band, not a militia. A militia implies the whole population armed and fighting. I know as my own country’s communist regime promoted just that for decades. I can tell you, for our system of defense to have had even a hope of success, everybody would have had to fight.

Sure, standing armies too can be fueled by conscription, but they can alsobe voluntarily based (professional armies, as they say nowadays). Militias would seem to bar even the possibility.

And again, besides the egregious indirect backing on conscription that favoring militias over standing armies entail, there is that whole division of labor thing. Again, take Switzerland. A guy works as an actuary and is taken form his profession and home every year to train in the mud. In case of war, I fear most of the Swiss militia would be wiped off by a professional force: and of course, as the division of labor applies here too. Would it seem sensible if every Swiss male was dragooned of his house every years to work the fields?

Now, one could say that armies are not the right way of providing defense and stuff, and I might agree, but favoring militias already implies a belief in a state-concerted defense effort. If we accept that, I see no other sensible way to do hat than a professional, voluntary army.

Or perhaps, Jefferson only meant that people should be armed and let the market deal with the rest, but that is not what ‘militia’ implies, at least not nowadays.

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

Aristippus — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 08:35:05 GMT

Did Jefferson say that people should be forced to fight? I think when he was talking about standing armies he didn't mean those voluntarily paid for and voluntarily staffed (which is actually more akin to the late 18th century American militias), but those paid for by the state (i.e. through coercion), and possibly staffed through conscription. Were people forced to fight in the early American militias? From Franklin's autobiography I get the impression that they were funded through private means and staffed by volunteers.

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

Merlin — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 08:23:33 GMT

What would he have said in our days of super-specialized and highly per-soldier capitalized armies? Or about nukes?

Or how exactly does forcing everyone to fight, willing or not, promote liberty more than paying the people to do the job? In fields such as revering a militia force, I see great inconsistency in many libertarians.

Re: Thomas Jefferson Was Opposed to Standing Armies

Aristippus — Tue, 23 Nov 2010 05:41:28 GMT

If Thomas Jefferson were around today, he would be shouted down by the media and politicians as an "extremist" and "reactionary".