General

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

limitgov — Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:04:55 GMT

"no different than a stand up comedian (or any performer) complaining about his audience. Most of the time, it's not the audience that 'sucks'. "

Difference is, at a comedy club, the patrons aren't forced to be there. Students are forced to be there. Good luck teaching a 14 y.o. a subject he doesn't care to learn AND the curriculum is crap and incorrect (especially in history class). But if you don't teach him the state mandated curriculm, the student won't do well on the TAKS test and YOU get in trouble.

What I'm saying is, gov. schools are very much like prisons. But without all the tools prison guards have to keep the students in line, it becomes difficult to do the job.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

z1235 — Thu, 14 Apr 2011 00:08:45 GMT

Caley McKibbin:

From the very first class he announced that anyone was free to leave if they wanted and never attend even one of his lectures, if they so desired. He guaranteed them a passing grade and no problems with their attendance records.

That is an old and common trick used to relieve the pressure. He wasn't serious.

I'd rather not go into details explaining the philosophy behind his policy, but it was well known and understood that he meant it, as there have been students (not in my class) that had taken him up on the offer. Most of them eventually ended up showing up to the lectures. The ones that didn't, got the minimal passing grade and no attendance problems, as promised.

I'm not a teacher so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about but I've been a student for many years and under many teachers and, to me, a teacher complaining about his students is no different than a stand up comedian (or any performer) complaining about his audience. Most of the time, it's not the audience that 'sucks'.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

Caley McKibbin — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 06:30:07 GMT

From the very first class he announced that anyone was free to leave if they wanted and never attend even one of his lectures, if they so desired. He guaranteed them a passing grade and no problems with their attendance records.

That is an old and common trick used to relieve the pressure. He wasn't serious.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

Smiling Dave — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 03:04:34 GMT

Amazing story, z. Will remember.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

Aristippus — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 01:28:43 GMT

No problem - ancient (economic) history, somewhere in Australia...

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

MrSchnapps — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 01:13:46 GMT

Now I'm doing my PhD.

Nice! Do you mind me asking where and in what field?

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

Aristippus — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 00:54:44 GMT

I was also a terrible student who barely did any work (which they set, that is). The assignments that I did do were ones that I could spin into something that I thought was interesting or humourous. Now I'm doing my PhD.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

gotlucky — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:10:11 GMT

This is the middle school in the town where I grew up. Tell me this doesn't look like a prison...

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

liberty student — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:29:55 GMT

There is a big difference learning what you are told, and learning how to reason. I was a mediocre student. I could learn what they wanted me to know when I applied myself (which was infrequent), but I read 10x as many books outside of school as I did within. And that was when I was 8.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

Prateek Sanjay — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:09:04 GMT

Jonathan M. F. Catalán:

Honestly, I sympathize with the education budget (only at the expense of other budgets, like the military budget) because I'm a hypocrit and my dad's a high school teacher and his wellbeing is currently my wellbeing, but Liberty Student is right. If you need force to 'teach' somebody then you're not teachign that person.

I had an amazing experience today. I was a horrible high school student. I was such a bad student that I started college at the age of 21 technically. I remember pre-calculus in high school and how much trouble I had with randiants. I'm taking the same class right now in college to get into a different branch of calculus (I wasted my time with 'business calculus') and I figured out the randiants and the circle before the professor even started. It's just self-intuitive.

That goes to show how little a student will learn if you turn him off.

I am astonished.

Like, I was pretty good student at school, and even loved it when I got 40/40 in a maths test while most got 20-25/40, but as far as reading - for personal knowledge and leisure - real, hard economics books, I have pretty little academic vigour compared to other Mises.Org posters. Although I have finished several economics books that I read for leisure, I have only done so with what turned out to be elementary level stuff.

So coming here, and realizing that one of the most dedicated scholarly enthusiasts here was once a self-professed bad student is revealing.

It's a reverse world here on the internet. The tables are always turned on me, where in class I'd think I knew my history pretty well, but then on an internet message board, I knew one kid from Chicago younger than me who could kill me at history. And yet, he was so bad at academics, he admitted he nearly failed an important standardized test for college in US.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

limitgov — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:46:58 GMT

"You've pointed out that compulsory attendence and lack of ability to punish students are the source of your woes. Don't you think that under a free market in education parents might still make kids attend school even when the don't want to? And don't you think that under a free market the school might not allow you to punish students as harsh as you would like to? My point is, there is a very real chance that government is not the source of your problems, or that under a free market in schooling you might still have to heed liberty student's advice and get creative."

At first, yes, I believe private schools would model themselves much like government schools. Although, pretty quickly, people would start to utilize the internet for learning and education would rapidly evolve. You would learn what you want when you want, how you wanted in much much less time.

Right now, school is more of a prison, baby sitting institution. If we had freedom, we would realize we wouldn't have to devote NEARLY as much time trying to learn something. It would evolve into something much more different.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

mikachusetts — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:42:54 GMT

limitgov,

You've pointed out that compulsory attendence and lack of ability to punish students are the source of your woes. Don't you think that under a free market in education parents might still make kids attend school even when the don't want to? And don't you think that under a free market the school might not allow you to punish students as harsh as you would like to? My point is, there is a very real chance that government is not the source of your problems, or that under a free market in schooling you might still have to heed liberty student's advice and get creative.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

limitgov — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 14:38:45 GMT

"Is detention even that effective?"

This place is very much like a prison. If you think of what keeps prisoners in line, then you understand the modern government school system.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

Andris Birkmanis — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 07:25:16 GMT

I was a horrible high school student.

A similar anecdote from me - I left high school without any usable knowledge of languages, despite being taught English for 8 years, Latvian for 11, and German for 2. After just one year in university (which at the time was exceptionally liberal, so I spent most of my time in computer room, instead of listening to lectures), I knew English enough to read scientific literature and Latvian enough to understand lectures (those I thought were worthy to attend). The bottom line - no amount of teaching can do what a modicum of studying does.

Re: Budget Cuts, Effecting Discipline at Schools

liberty student — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 03:28:47 GMT

limitgov:
you have to remember there are alot of students there by force. they do not want to be there.

Do you think that giving them detention makes them want to be there more?

My point is that if you want the kids to respond in a better way, think about the incentives you are offering them. Instead of making a bad situation worse, try to make a bad situation better.