General

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

DanielMuff — Wed, 11 May 2011 23:41:07 GMT

Conspiracy nuts NPR and Associated Press ask to see the bin Laden death photos: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2011/05/npr-file-bin-laden-death-photo-foia/37553/.

Ha!

Conspiracy nuts: 7
Aaron Burr: -12

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

Anarcho-libertarian — Fri, 06 May 2011 06:25:38 GMT

Autolykos:

AaronBurr:
"shoot to disable" This is one of these strange terms we keep hearing from people who have clearly no police or Military background.There is no 'shoot to disable' it isn't viable

Your evidence/source(s) please?

This might not relate directly, but please don't ever fire a warning shot or "shoot to disable" if you have a gun and are in a dangerous encounter, it could be a huge mistake for two main reasons:

1. You might have a full magazine, but you aren't guaranteed that any of the bullets after the one you just fired will fire. Your gun could jam. Now when the criminal charges or raises a gun you are screwed.

2. The criminals adreneline from being shot will skyrocket, his perception of pain will shut down, and now you have an even bigger problem than when you started.

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

Amadeus — Thu, 05 May 2011 18:41:02 GMT

I doubt they look that cowa doooty.

When ever theres something fishy about something, it's definitley those guys. Be it an assasination of a government official or an organized disent/rebellion. It's not much of a conspiracy since the CIA acknowledges that it's what they do.

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

DanielMuff — Thu, 05 May 2011 05:45:03 GMT

These guys?

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

Scrooge McDuck — Thu, 05 May 2011 05:31:39 GMT

Doug Casey's take:

L: Doug, we’re going to lose a lot of subscribers talking about the news everyone is all gaga about, but I don’t see how we can shirk our responsibility to do so… So, Obama’s ratings drop to their nadir, and lo and behold, he personally orders the execution of America’s Public Enemy #1. This is a man no one has seen for ten years, but whose alleged audio messages have long had many people doubting that he’s even still alive. And now the body has conveniently been buried at sea before anyone who is not directly under the president in the chain of command can see it. Does it make me a loony conspiracy theorist to find myself feeling that this is all too convenient for the Powers That Be?

Doug: Look, a thinking person has to question authority – at all times, on all issues. It’s a matter of principle, as well as prudence. I’ve said it before, and will say it again: 90% of everything in the media is bull. If it’s not a fabrication, it’s opinion disguised as fact. Or facts that are modified or twisted. Or there’s significant data left out. Often that’s not because of some conspiracy, but rather the pure incompetence of reporters and editors today. There aren’t any H.L. Menckens on the scene that I can think of. I read and listen to the news mainly for entertainment purposes, and to learn what other people seem to believe.

Do I think this is all a con job? Well, you’d think that after spending trillions of dollars, and killing hundreds of thousands of people, that finally, after ten years, they could catch up with Osama, who is supposed to be the mastermind of evil itself. Frankly, at this point, he couldn’t have been more than just a tired, sick old man. He would probably have died naturally in a few years anyway, if he hadn’t already died years ago.

But you’d think they could get their story straight. First he’s hiding behind a woman, using her as a shield as he returned fire. Then he’s unarmed. I’ve read he was killed with two shots to the head. It sounds like a mob hit.

L: What makes you most skeptical?

Doug: The whole thing stinks, from top to bottom. You’d think that if they knew where he was, they would have gone out of their way to take him alive – at almost any cost. Think of the information he would have had! But instead they seemed to go out of their way to kill him, which impresses me as incredibly stupid and counterproductive... Unless they don’t want him talking.

After all, Osama said several times that he had nothing to do with the events of 9/11. But Bush used him, and 9/11, as the casus belli for Afghanistan. It would have been interesting to know who Osama thought was actually behind 9/11.

Then, after killing him, they dump his body in the Arabian Sea, using the excuse that he had to be interred within 24 hours as a Muslim, and it wasn’t possible to bury him because they didn’t want to create a shrine. As if they go out of their way to bury every Muslim they kill within 24 hours… I suspect that, in fact, they leave most bodies as a treat for the dogs and the crows. We’ll now never know whose body that was. Or exactly how he was killed.

So now, in any event, all the physical evidence has been disposed of. It’s unclear to me if they also executed everyone else in the house – excuse me, “compound,” as any house government agents attack automatically becomes a compound – where they took him. I suspect everyone was executed. Witnesses are never convenient.

L: Do you think Osama has been dead for years, as some people claim?

Doug: It’s said he was always a sick man, in need of a dialysis machine. Maybe he has been dead for many years. But even if those in government believe he died years ago, they never claimed it as a fact, partially because they couldn’t present the body and prove it. And partially because it was convenient to have the devil still roaming the world – the better to keep the sheep frightened and huddling, looking for their shepherd to protect them.

Who knows why they wanted him to appear dead now? Maybe it’s just a political convenience for Obama. After all, Clinton apparently started bombing the Serbs to distract attention from his problems with Monica.

L: And Bush II lied to the world about Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destruction when his party had an election to win – that was the excuse for going into Iraq.

Doug: It’s all very much like the movie Wag the Dog, with Dustin Hoffman and Robert DeNiro. At this late and thoroughly corrupt stage of the empire, art imitates life, life imitates art, and no one knows what reality is.

L: But the government says they have DNA tests to prove it was bin Laden. It’s proof!

Doug: The same government that claims to have killed him. But I have a question: Quis custodiet ipsos custodies – Who watches the watchers? I thought it was ironic that Putin of Russia – who’s undoubtedly put out quite a few orders for hits in his day – evidenced outrage at the way the U.S. government is trying to kill Gaddafi, now that it seems expedient. I have it here – Putin said: "Who permitted this, was there any trial? Who took on the right to execute this man, no matter who he is?"

And he’s right. I find it shocking that the U.S. government just takes it upon itself to kill people now, without even a show trial like Saddam got. Of course the government has always had professional killers in its employ – but it at least had the decency to deny their existence. Now it brags about them, and parades them. It’s always had secret prisons too – but now it’s quite overt about Gitmo and renditions and torture.

L: What really gets me is the laughing, dancing, and singing in the streets. I believe in self-defense and have no problem with the use of lethal force on murderers. I even understand the urge to celebrate a victory… But the combination of credulity and jubilation seems… frankly, rather sad and frightening. Oddly enough, I find myself almost agreeing with the Vatican, which came out with a statement saying that the death should prompt meditation, not celebration.

Doug: I understand Americans were jumping around Times Square as if it was V-J Day when it was announced. It’s sad, really. And very unseemly, and degraded, to celebrate a murder. They’re celebrating an extra-judicial murder performed by contract killers. That’s what SEAL Team 6, which apparently conducted this raid, does – like the Army’s Delta Force. They’re told to go somewhere and kill any person or persons their “superiors” say, and they just do it. If you wear a uniform, and work for a state, murder becomes quite acceptable, with no questions asked by anyone.

I definitely think there are people out there who need killing. But my view is that you should do it yourself and take responsibility for it, if you feel that strongly about it. But government officials are too degraded for that by any stretch. Even worse, perhaps, are the people who go and do it because they’re told to. Certainly, they merit a measure of respect. They are excellent physical specimens. They’re skilled in the black arts and they undoubtedly possess a lot of courage and sang-froid. But they’re not heroes. It’s odd that they’re considered heroes; both they and their employers should be brought up on war-crime charges. I expect the men among them who are decent realize that they’re acting unethically, quit after a while, and suffer nightmares and post-traumatic stress disorder for many years after. The ones who stay in it are simply dangerous sociopaths, like Mafia hit men.

Don’t get me wrong. I believe Osama is dead – whenever he died. And I’m glad he’s dead. I don’t like the things he believed in, especially his especially puritanical version of Islam. But this is not the way these things should be handled. At least not by a supposedly free country.

L: Well, we don’t need to draw this conversation out – the point is made, whether people agree or not. I just hope thinking people will do exactly that: think.

Doug: One thing they should think about is that Osama didn’t actually present – or certainly shouldn’t have presented – a risk to the U.S. You’ll recall that he said he was only up in arms for three reasons: 1) the U.S. had its troops in Muslim lands; 2) the U.S. was supporting the stooges running those countries; and 3) the U.S. was supporting Israel, which he deemed an oppressor of the Palestinians. If the U.S. desisted from those things, he was happy to leave it alone, in the belief it would necessarily self-destruct.

As far as I’m concerned, his three demands are quite just and reasonable. As for Israel, I wish those people well – as I do the Palestinians. But it’s not my business, and it’s certainly not that of the U.S. government. If Jews want to support Israel, or Muslims Palestine, for whatever reasons, that’s their business too.

In any event, killing bin Laden will not solve the so-called terror problem. I believe Al Qaeda is only a few hundred people, at best. But largely because of the War on Terror, it’s metastasized into scores of little organizations, and probably hundreds of lone wolves. Announcing his death, followed by the wild and pointless jubilation of Americans will likely only reinvigorate these people.

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

Amadeus — Thu, 05 May 2011 04:35:53 GMT

"Why did the |33t Navy Seals shoot to kill instead of shoot to disable? It's not as if they weren't capable of doing so."

It wasn't the Navy Seals, it was DEVGRU. Navy Seals/Rangers are teir 2 and Delta and DEVGRU are teir 1.

I honestly even doubt it was DEVGRU, they're really fumbling around with the details so it was probably CIA SOD.

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

Caley McKibbin — Thu, 05 May 2011 01:47:38 GMT

My eyes did the worlds biggest roll when I heard they weren't releasing the evidence of his death.

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

Sieben — Wed, 04 May 2011 23:44:29 GMT

Anyone who thinks they could have taken Osama alive obviously hasn't even played Call of Duty.

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

DanielMuff — Wed, 04 May 2011 20:15:22 GMT

AaronBurr:

"shoot to disable" This is one of these strange terms we keep hearing from people who have clearly no police or Military background.There is no 'shoot to disable' it isn't viable

??? How is it not viable if ObL wasn't even armed? He was captured, as the USA government now admits, after a gunfight. Why did he have to be shot in the head twice after he had been captured? Not even these cops had to shoot their captives in the head twice: http://vimeo.com/12625074

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

auctionguy10 — Wed, 04 May 2011 17:59:32 GMT

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5339-2002Mar22?language=printer <- Mentions US education of Afghans during cold war in beginning of article

Tom Fleming:
While Gadafi is largely a figure of fun–the Michael Jackson of the Mediterranean as Taki has described him–Osama bin Laden was possessed of a noble idealism. He sacrificed everything, wealth, social position, reputation, and ultimately his life for the religion in which he believed. Deluded by the evil commandments of a false prophet, he arranged the murder of people he had never met in order to retaliate against a government that oppressed his co-religionists. I made this case in the weeks following the attacks on the Twin Towers, and I have learned nothing that alters my opinion.

This is what I don't understand- Bin laden constantly mentions all the political motivations behind everything he ever did, and the smartest thing people can come up with is "yeah he was just really religious thats all". What a nice way to make sure no problems are ever solved- and throw out the possibility of real introspection.

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

Clayton — Wed, 04 May 2011 17:44:21 GMT

AaronBurr:

i) do you have evidence of this and ii) I have met with teh CIA too but they don't fund me.please p[roove how meeting a CIA operative prooves that you were funded by him

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism

Did you meet the CIA just two months prior to blowing up the World Trade Center? I didn't think so...

The mujahideen in Afghanistan were armed, trained and funded by CIA.

Some of teh Mujahis were funded by through the CIA

OK, so there we have it.

One of the largest training sites where they met was called al-Qaeda or "The Base" - there's footage of UBL rallying the troops at al-Qaeda.

Not true. Al queda refers to a list not a base.

It refers to CIA's list and otherwise to the damn base. Read the quote Aristippus gave.

CIA referred to the group of mujahideen who frequented al-Qaeda as... al-Qaeda. As far as I've read, they never referred to themselves as "al-Qaeda." There is no al-Qaeda, there's just an intelligence shorthand for a group of mujahideen fighters who were associated with UBL.

Again your evidence please.

I believe David Ray Griffin talks about this in his book The New Pearl Harbor.

Taliban is closely affiliated with Pakistani ISI which, in turn, is closely affiliated with CIA

The CIA is not closely affilliated with the ISI. The US government sends vast military aid to the Pakistani Government but the ISI is full of Islamacists and is not trusted in any way shape or form by the CIA

I think you have a naive view of the cozy relationship between international intelligence agencies. Pakistan - like Egypt or Saudi Arabia - has become an extension of US foreign policy, but it's not like we have a division of US troops stationed in Karachi.

The Taliban didn't even matter in Afghan life until the late 1990's. The whole thing is a big ruse. There is no Taliban in terms of a truly grassroots, pro-hardline-Sharia movement within Afghanistan or even Pakistan. Hardline Sharia is an alien transplant into these cultures, especially the Afghans. These are games being played by the Brzezinski types who are convinced that they're so much smarter than all the rest of us that they can get away with anything.

The talibs by defintion were students at hardline Madrassas. Hardline sharia is the norm amonst Pashtuns.

False. This is the propaganda put out by the Establishment and their pro-war apologists. The truth is that the Pashtun culture is much older than Islam and Islamic law within Afghanistan has had to adapt to Pashtun culture, not the other way around. Kabul was a modern city, bustling with life and business just 40 years ago, before the Russians invaded and the CIA's dirty war against the Russians in Afghanistan began. The Russians eventually retreated with their tail between their legs - as the US government also will, one day. Try reading up on Afghan culture. You will be astonished at its depth, resilience and most of all its level-headedness and practicality. These are people with very few luxuries... not a lot of time on their hands for religious extremism. Islamism is an alien implant.

Clayton -

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

Aristippus — Wed, 04 May 2011 14:40:19 GMT

Sure: http://articles.cnn.com/2002-02-05/world/binladen.transcript_1_incitement-fatwas-al-qaeda-organization/8?_s=PM:asiapcf

Re: On the news: Osama bin Laden is dead

Autolykos — Wed, 04 May 2011 14:30:35 GMT

AaronBurr:
"shoot to disable" This is one of these strange terms we keep hearing from people who have clearly no police or Military background.There is no 'shoot to disable' it isn't viable