General

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

Joe — Mon, 06 Jun 2011 03:31:30 GMT

I have certainly noticed in my life that I am not as attracted to Black and Hispanic women in the same percentages as I am to other races. Usually has something to do with weight, which probably is related to nutrition, which is probably related to socio-economic background.

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

AaronBurr — Fri, 03 Jun 2011 13:05:18 GMT

I'm a Racist. I beleive that those groupings of people we call races have, on average, more tendancy to certain traits than others. What the left have managed to do ovetr the years is make all discussions on this impossible by shouting down the opposition so much that even the free thinking right unhesitatingly dismiss any speculation.

So, it is measurable and quite obvious that black women have more testosterone and have faces that look more masucline than non black women. It has very little to do with conditioning.

Evolutionary biology is the most valuable tool we have at the moment and attacks on 'scientism' belong to the Marxists of critical theory and the buffons who call themselves 'left libertarians'.

Racism does not equal race hatred.

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

Paul — Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:45:19 GMT

Assuming this data is all gathered from Americans, the result is probably (a) true, and (b) praxeologically predictable...and nothing to do with racism. I would bet it wouldn't apply if the sample were extended outside the US. (Can't anyone think of a reason black American women might be expected to be less attractive, on average, but black American men wouldn't be? Think about it for a bit...)

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

Caley McKibbin — Wed, 01 Jun 2011 04:51:21 GMT

The study which is the subject of this thread is worthless because it has no methodology, ignores basic facts about human evolutionary history (that non-blacks did not reproduce with blacks until extremely recently in human history) and contradicts basic ideas from evolutionary psychology - that women are objectively more attractive than men.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. I didn't say anything about any study. Kanazawa's post is what is ignorant of the facts and what I did was point that out. I don't disagree with the results of experiments. I disagree with the interpretations. When I google for research on attractiveness in the context of lower order brain function, I can't stop thinking about something that James Randi said about homeopathy. There is a lot of literature on how it works and little to show whether it works. In observation of your 4 points, EP still seems to fit that role in the human sciences, which is to say, it generates explanations and no facts. Most often the teleoIogical kind. I expect at least explanations/hypotheses made in awareness of the relevant facts that are already known.

Right now it is astoundingly difficult to find published anything remotely conclusive about what actually makes a sexy appearance, especially for men. I think that is simply because of the hypothesis driven analysis. We need to know what is attractive to begin with before we can explain why it is attractive, nevermind explaining why aggregated segments of the human population are a more or less attractive.

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

Clayton — Wed, 01 Jun 2011 00:00:59 GMT

It's just plain poor logic. There are higher standards than using a second rate method like that. It's one thing to use it as a hint at what to test. It's another thing to automatically explain everything as being such because of some perceived utility.

I think you're selling them way short. First of all, not just any human behavior is on the table for explanation via EP. Evolutionary psychology specifically precludes all forms of human behavior which vary from culture to culture. That these behaviors vary from culture to culture proves that their basis is not exclusively biological and, hence, evolutionary explanation is not likely to be useful. Evolutionary psychology does begin with some basic assumptions and it's key to take these assumptions into account. The aforementioned book Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters lists these assumptions.

1. People are animals... Evolutionary psychology recognizes that the same biological laws of evolution apply to humans as they do to all other species. It therefore refutes the human exceptionalism of the Standard Social Science Model...

2. There is nothing special about the human brain. For evolutionary psychologists, the brain is just another body part, just like the hand or the pancreas. Just as millions of years of evolution have radually shaped the hand or the pancreas to perform certain functions, so has evolution shaped the human brain to perform its function, which is solving adaptive problems to help humans survive and reproduce successfully... Evolution does not stop at the neck; it goes all the way up.

3. Human nature is innate. Just as dogs are born with innate dog nature, and cats are born with innate cat nature, humans are born with innate human nature. This follows from principle 1 above... Socialization and learning are very important for humans, but humans ar eborn with the capacity for cultural learning, which is innate... This principle of evolutionary psychology is in clear contrast to the blank slate ("tabula rasa") assumption of the Standard Social Science Model.

4. Human behavior is the product of both innate human nature and the environment. Genes very seldom express themselves in a vacuum. Their expressions - how the genes translate into behavior - often depend on and are guided by the environment. The same genes can express themselves differently depending on the context. In this sense, both innate human nature, which the genes program, and the environment in which humans grow up are equally important determinants of behavior.

Starting from the rather basic observation that the vast majority of our evolutionary history was spent in the savannas of Africa (pre-tribal, primoridal subsistence as advanced, bipedal primates), evolutionary psychologists reasonably infer that most of the "wiring" in our brain is adaptive to that environment. Recent changes (in evolutionary timescale) - such as sedentariness and agriculturalization about 13,000 years ago - have only had time to have a very minor impact in the brain's wiring and recent historical changes such as the Industrial Revolution have had essentially no impact on the biology of our brain at all, as compared to the impact of our long history in primitive conditions. Hence, we have ape brains racing around industrialized cities in business suits, a view which is very consistent with the way humans actually behave. For example, I think this goes much further than any "brainwashing" hypothesis to explain why humans are so predisposed to basic economic fallacies, such as just prices, labor theory of value or the broken-window fallacy.

On the particular subject of this thread - variation in the attractiveness of different femal attributes to males - there is some research from EP on the subject, which is discussed in Chapter 3 of the above book. Men prefer women with light skin, long hair, red lips and large breasts because these were unforgeable signs of health and youth in the ancestral environment where the human brain spent the majority of its evolutionary time and healthy, young women have the highest reproductive value (explained in the book as the potential number of children a woman can have).

The study which is the subject of this thread is worthless because it has no methodology, ignores basic facts about human evolutionary history (that non-blacks did not reproduce with blacks until extremely recently in human history) and contradicts basic ideas from evolutionary psychology - that women are objectively more attractive than men.

EP FTW.

Clayton -

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

Caley McKibbin — Tue, 31 May 2011 23:18:40 GMT

After what I said earlier I realized that the problem might be rooted in the scientific method. It says to begin with a hypothesis, which explains the tendency I'm finding, though it seems to be much more inane in this topic than others.

Haha I didn't say flirt with the whole neighborhood, I just mean to be genuinely happy as you go on about your day, not for attention but just because thats who you are! Thats super attractive for me. For example a picture like this->

I, for one, have no idea what you are talking about. It seems like you changed from saying something about (a) how women act in response to an encounter to (b) how they look in modelling photos, which is determined by a photographer.

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

auctionguy10 — Thu, 26 May 2011 01:46:15 GMT

Sure, I smile. It is just that not every male is worth the effort. Remember, us well backsided women have plenty of fertile men circling around us, hence the necessity to use bitch shield to prevent time wasting of low value men. You could look at it the other way - the good looking women who DO smile and flirt with every man are the dishonest ones, they are only doing it for the attention - yet the impression to the males is presented of a possibility of future copulation, where none exists.

Haha I didn't say flirt with the whole neighborhood, I just mean to be genuinely happy as you go on about your day, not for attention but just because thats who you are! Thats super attractive for me. For example a picture like this->

http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebs/adrianalima/adriana_lima_10.jpg

doesn't do it for me. Her face is like stone! Deadness. No life.

Not that I give men a pass, too many are staring at women like pieces of meat, why would any woman be comfortable with that- the bitch shield serves a fine purpose.

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

aervew — Wed, 25 May 2011 23:09:50 GMT

haha I agree with that. I hate it when I see a formerly gorgeous woman use botox or get some other type of implant or wears heavy make up. Pointless for me. Throw in women who try to be "Sexy" with super serious "you can't have this" faces in that category too. Smiles damnit! I wanna see smiles and genuine happiness! General consensus and glamour magazines be damned!

Sure, I smile. It is just that not every male is worth the effort. Remember, us well backsided women have plenty of fertile men circling around us, hence the necessity to use bitch shield to prevent time wasting of low value men. You could look at it the other way - the good looking women who DO smile and flirt with every man are the dishonest ones, they are only doing it for the attention - yet the impression to the males is presented of a possibility of future copulation, where none exists.

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

gocrew — Wed, 25 May 2011 19:29:16 GMT

Vitor:

I've been with black, norwegian, mexican, canadian, white brazilians (southern european type) and mixed brazilian girls, ranging from 4'11 to 5'10, I would say that everyone was quite unique and women and that thing they carry between the legs are awesome.

LOL! Fantastic. I used to have plans of conducting a vaginal flavor survey across races, but I got married before I could really get started. Any thoughts on this?

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

ladyattis — Wed, 25 May 2011 19:02:48 GMT

I tend to be attracted to dark skinned people sexually more so than lighter skinned people (and I'm causcasion here!). I don't find them more exotic, but I guess I like the way their skin glows or some crap. I can't quite quantify it. Again, it's all really subjective crap, if you get what I'm trying to illustrate here.

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

AJ — Wed, 25 May 2011 18:55:05 GMT

auctionguy10:
Smiles damnit! I wanna see smiles and genuine happiness!

Hear hear!

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

auctionguy10 — Wed, 25 May 2011 03:20:42 GMT

Females don't know much about what makes females look good.

haha I agree with that. I hate it when I see a formerly gorgeous woman use botox or get some other type of implant or wears heavy make up. Pointless for me. Throw in women who try to be "Sexy" with super serious "you can't have this" faces in that category too. Smiles damnit! I wanna see smiles and genuine happiness! General consensus and glamour magazines be damned!

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

Caley McKibbin — Wed, 25 May 2011 03:11:01 GMT

i read somewhere that across different races, man prefer lighter skinned women, even africans.

I've done a lot of studying to find what specific features look the best to me. What I do is look at sets of faces each with one particular feature in common and see which sets generally look the best. If I did a broader study I would use the same method with more people. That raises the question for me of why someone would over-generalize into uselessly nebulous categories such as in this case. You know the showbiz cliche, "Any publicity is good publicity". If I was marketing a book rather than doing real research Kanazawa's method is what I would use.

But on the other hand here in America we see it is a huge business for white women to darken their skin with tanning, so whats going on here?

Females don't know much about what makes females look good. Hip narrowing surgery and hip widening surgery are both big business.

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

auctionguy10 — Wed, 25 May 2011 02:40:09 GMT

i read somewhere that across different races, man prefer lighter skinned women, even africans. however, we cannot know if his is a purely "unbiased" view or colored by social ideals. media can have a great impact on people. racial biases come into play also. wouldnt you say that a nazi would find a jew less attractive than the average jew.

Well sure, some people do prefer light skinned women, you will see women putting all sorts of whitening creams on in different cultures. But on the other hand here in America we see it is a huge business for white women to darken their skin with tanning, so whats going on here?

Re: Black Women Less Attractive Than Other Women

William — Wed, 25 May 2011 02:06:21 GMT

Wait, you're saying you want to disconnect the mechanical functions of our brains from the way we think? We all evolved along similar lines, so I think it's pretty reasonably to suggest that we have similar tastes, and in the grand scheme of things we all do. Thing is, when we make generalisations within racial lines as opposed to between them, they seem to be fairly uncontroversial.

I am saying everything has it's own "language" and it can't really cross into the realm of other "languages" - this is trying to insert an ontological sunjective reality into a natural science language, it can not do that. The minute it does we treat it different: As one would treat a virus or infection - this is simply not the case with these matters. Upon quick and honest reflection you have to admit these variables are overwhleming to think about. The minute we can is the minute it is out of the realm of "subjective" type subjects, which is fine - it is just a different language with different rules until otherwise demonstrated.