General

Re: Freedoms: Iran Vs America

gotlucky — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 05:20:20 GMT

Okay, I really think you should learn some reading comprehension. I'm actually serious about this.

Marko:

First of all it would be appropriate for you to appologise for falsely accusing me of misunderstanding the OP and not being relevant, when actually it was you who misunderstood me and wasted my time. Also, when are you or Wheylous going to post something relevant to the OP? You were concerned about my alleged lack of relevancy, but you seem far less preouccupied with your own.

I made no such accusation. I will quote what I said:

gotlucky:

In fact, the only relevant part of your post is that Americans were taxed in order to limit the freedoms of others abroad.

There was, in fact, relevance in your post. I never said that your post was not relevant. So, I assume, you now owe me an apology for blantantly misrepresenting what I said?

Also, Wheylous did post a relevant comment. I already explained what his comment was, though I believe it is self-explainable. Anyway, since you would like me to post something of relevance to this thread, I will. Americans have the freedom to post to forums that are anti-government, such as this one. Iranians do not have such freedom.

Marko:

You captured the wiseass tone it was given in alright. The reply got exactly the response it had earned.

Actually, it seemed like you were just being a dick to Wheylous.

Marko:

But actually you misrepresent what was actually said. (Really, how many more things are you going to get wrong?) I spoke of taxation for American large scale killing of people abroad. Wheylous spoke of taxation for Iranian domestic suppression and further suggested there wasn't a difference between the two.

You should quote directly what I said that you believe was a misreprentation. As far as I'm concerned, oppression includes widespread killing. I used oppression as a term because I felt that it was broader and more accurately describes what the American military is doing overseas. As far as I'm aware, the American military not only kills foreigners, but it also strictly regulates them, beats them, enforces curfews, etc. The Iranian government does oppress the Iranian people. So I would appreciate it if you actually pointed out where I misrepresented you.

Wheylous' statement could be read in two different ways - "makes all the difference..."

1) That it indeed does have a difference

2) That there is no difference

I imagine that he actually meant number 1, though it appears you interpreted it as number 2. We read it differently, and without Wheylous clarifying, I really have nothing else to say except that we both read different meanings into his statement.

Re: Freedoms: Iran Vs America

Marko — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 23:27:59 GMT

First of all it would be appropriate for you to appologise for falsely accusing me of misunderstanding the OP and not being relevant, when actually it was you who misunderstood me and wasted my time. Also, when are you or Wheylous going to post something relevant to the OP? You were concerned about my alleged lack of relevancy, but you seem far less preouccupied with your own.

Wow, so instead of the people of Iran being taxed to oppress others abroad, they are just taxed to fund their own oppression. That was Wheylous' point. Instead of telling Wheylous that you named one freedom close to your heart, and that the distinction was important to you, you call him a wisecrack and tell him that he's blowing air and that he should not speak out of turn.

You captured the wiseass tone it was given in alright. The reply got exactly the response it had earned.

But actually you misrepresent what was actually said. (Really, how many more things are you going to get wrong?) I spoke of taxation for American large scale killing of people abroad. Wheylous spoke of taxation for Iranian domestic suppression and further suggested there wasn't a difference between the two.

But actually there is a world of difference, both in the philosophical sense I explained to you, but also more obviously in the quantitive sense in the case that is relevant to the OP and that we were talking about. It is fact Iran has killed far less people and engaged in far less violation of rights in the course of its domestic suppresion than the US has killed and violated in the course of its large scale killing of people abroad. So even if the two were one and the same thing one would still be far worse on the account of its scale.

Yes, I cold have pointed out that freedom from taxation for domestic suppresion (not that Americans are free in this way) is another freedom from the one I named. I could have then further showed the idiocy of being told one freedom is irrelevant without an additional, different freedom added to it.

But why exactly am I obliged to take this line of argument, when the point of there not being a difference is wrong just on the glaring fact that Iran has killed nowhere near the number of people at home, the US has killed abroad? A fact Wheylous probably knew, but decided to claim equivalence anyway. Not only was his objection irrelevant to what I had had in mind originally, it was also just idiotic from just where he was standing.

Re: Freedoms: Iran Vs America

gotlucky — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 22:18:27 GMT

You should learn to read. I actually quoted the OP. He asked for, and I will quote again:

freedoms people have in Iran vs America?

Wow, so instead of the people of Iran being taxed to oppress others abroad, they are just taxed to fund their own oppression. That was Wheylous' point. Instead of telling Wheylous that you named one freedom close to your heart, and that the distinction was important to you, you call him a wisecrack and tell him that he's blowing air and that he should not speak out of turn.

And I'm the annoying one?

Re: Freedoms: Iran Vs America

Marko — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 22:09:42 GMT

You're delusional. OP asked for a summary of various freedoms enjoyed by Americans and Iranians. The OP being limitgov who is a oneline topic spammer, but never contributes to debates I satisfied myself with naming one freedom close to my heart that is enjoyed by Iranians but not by Americans. My post was short, but perfectly on topic.

Now if you can't comprehend that freedoms are experienced subjectively and that therefore there isn't necessarily the equivalent between being taxed for the purpose of building bridges to nowhere, and being taxed for the purpose of funding abortion clinics, for the funding of Holocaust denial institutes, or for funding aggressive wars and bombing foreigners then that is your problem.

It doesn't make me off topic, but rather makes you annyoing for being quick to the keyboard and getting on my case for alleged irrelevancy, but slow to comprehend something as basic as that.

Would you really be just as happy to give up to Adolph Hitler what you give up to Uncle Sam, or would an equal level of taxation by the Nazis fall heavier upon your shoulders? Would you in fact sooner give up $105 to Uncle Sam than $95 to Adolph Hitler??? I know I would. There isn't an objective, one-size-fits-all freedom called "level of taxation" that would make all the other tax-related freedoms irrelevant for everyone. Freedom is the most subjective, individual-specific thing in the world.

When I'm talking about freedom from taxation for the purpose of large-scale aggressive war, I am most definetly talking about a domestic freedom.

Re: Freedoms: Iran Vs America

gotlucky — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:37:19 GMT

limitgov:

Can someone knowledgable start out with a post comparing various freedoms people have in Iran vs America? Or America vs Iran?

Wheylous:

Instead it's used to suppress the domestic population! Makes all the difference...

Marko':

Don't be a wisecrack. You know full well Iran can not hold a candle to the US in the amount of evil perpetrated, so you're just blowing air because I said something that rubbed you the wrong way. Or else you don't know and shouldn't be speaking out of turn.

United States' wars since 1945 have produced at least 6 million deaths, I don't think Iranian authorithies can quite match that. So yea, there's a difference alright.

Calm down there, buddy. The OP clearly asked about freedoms in America vs in Iran. He did not ask about what freedoms America limits abroad or Iran limits abroad. Wheylous' comment is entirely relevant. In fact, the only relevant part of your post is that Americans were taxed in order to limit the freedoms of others abroad. So, is taxation in America really so bad that it would be better to live in Iran?

Re: Freedoms: Iran Vs America

Marko — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:56:50 GMT

Don't be a wisecrack. You know full well Iran can not hold a candle to the US in the amount of evil perpetrated, so you're just blowing air because I said something that rubbed you the wrong way. Or else you don't know and shouldn't be speaking out of turn.

United States' wars since 1945 have produced at least 6 million deaths, I don't think Iranian authorithies can quite match that. So yea, there's a difference alright.

Re: Freedoms: Iran Vs America

Wheylous — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 20:33:37 GMT

Freedom from their money being taken away for the purposes of killing people abroad on a large scale.

Instead it's used to suppress the domestic population! Makes all the difference...

Re: Freedoms: Iran Vs America

Marko — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 18:59:43 GMT

Iranians: Freedom from their money being taken away for the purposes of killing people abroad on a large scale.

It's a very specific freedom, but a valuable one.

Re: Freedoms: Iran Vs America

auctionguy10 — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 18:34:57 GMT

I think a good way to start is to compare prison populations.

Freedoms: Iran Vs America

limitgov — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 18:12:17 GMT

Can someone knowledgable start out with a post comparing various freedoms people have in Iran vs America? Or America vs Iran?