General

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

DanielMuff — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 23:22:55 GMT

Thank you!

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

Aristippus — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 22:59:15 GMT

I thought it was 100% clear that Bruce Wayne didn't die and that it was pretty obvious that he wouldn't. The fact that they mentioned auto-pilot several times in the movie should have been a clear indication that it was going to be important at some point. Also, we SAW Bruce Wayne alive afterwards!! And he left Gordon a new light. And he left Blake the location of the Batcave. These things were meant to be Bruce Wayne telling those characters that he was alive after all. Maybe if Nolan had only shot the back of Wayne's head in the final Florence scene like in the original fantasy, it wouldn't be that clear (but in that case Selina Kyle would be clearly visible sitting across from him, so it'd still be pretty easy to argue that he didn't die).

I make the joke that just before he flies off with the bomb, Batman doesn't say "No autopilot" but rather "No, autopilot!"

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

DanielMuff — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 22:48:02 GMT

Lol.

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

Willy Truth — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 21:13:27 GMT

Haha, I'd like to think that Nolan cares enough about his craft to include that feature as a sort-of easter egg.

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

nirgrahamUK — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 20:57:19 GMT

http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/08/04/the-dark-knight-rises-a-toy-helps-clarify-ending/

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

Willy Truth — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 20:50:20 GMT

There will be no more Chris Nolan batman movies. His trilogy took a whole new life unto themselves and so I think it's fitting to leave the last movie ambiguous as to the fate of Batman. Whether or not (in the story) Bruce Wayne survives, Batman is dead regardless because he finally vindicates himself in the eyes of Gotham (i.e., the Batman statue revealed in the end) and retires for good.

And despite what Alfred says earlier in the movie about how he wishes to quietly acknowledge Bruce Wayne in Florence someday once he's found a new life for himself--I don't buy that once Alfred has been shown weeping and talking about how he's failed Bruce that his reaction to suddenly finding out he's alive would be so subtle and subdued. But, just like Inception, Chris Nolan intentionally left many clues supporting either ending, but I think the most realistic is that Bruce Wayne the person is dead but the spirit and essense of Batman lives on through his impact on Gotham and the other protagonists.

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

DanielMuff — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 20:23:34 GMT

Maybe the entire movie was Alred's dream. Batman didn't die; he was seen in Florence with the girl from The Princess Diaries.

If Batman did die, then the ending sucked. How's the next movie going to begin; with the funeral? Then another two hours of Robin and Catwoman teaming up? Might as well add a twist at the end where we see Batman's eyes open while he's six feet under, leaving ambiguity and stuff for the following film.

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

Willy Truth — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 20:11:32 GMT

Finally, we get to the true meat of the debate: Did Batman die?

Of course Chris Nolan is notorious for ambiguous endings, but, dammit, Batman can't survive an atomic blast. Alfred was daydreaming. Bruce Wayne didn't fear death and thought that his martyrdom was ultimately necessary.

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

Wesker1982 — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 19:56:32 GMT

Dark Knight Rises: It's Politics and Ours, by Jeffrey Tucker http://lfb.org/today/dark-knight-rises-its-politics-and-ours/

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

gotlucky — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 19:49:15 GMT

Perhaps he means spiritually?

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

DanielMuff — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 19:44:22 GMT

Batman didn't die.

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

Willy Truth — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 19:36:47 GMT

Of course it's impractical and silly to analyze every Christopher Nolan movie, but I feel that TDKR has far more relevant themes to our interests at Mises than any others: It is specifically noted in the first film that the League of Shadows used "economic" tactics to try to bring down Gotham's infrastructure, which we see tied in with Talia in the third film. There are also conspicuous themes of class warfare/socio-economic disparity. And I also am sympathetic with the villains from the movies; their characters are painted in more than the usual black and white--the Joker was a victim of domestic abuse, Bane was enslaved and tortured, Scarecrow has mental disorders.

And of course the point of the movie is removed from this discussion; the point is to entertain. But in doing so it has depicted some relevant themes about what we all love discussing--whether or not you wish to do so. Plus, the movie was awesome and they killed Batman.

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

vive la insurrection — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 17:38:52 GMT

I was using something closer to definition 2 and even shades of 3:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/decadent

I think when using "decadent" meaning "decay" it could work, but I would look at it as more of an "empty set" tautology.

simply let it take it's course and try the best to be the one on top when shit hits the fan.

Oh well depending on how this is used that's fine (though I don't know where nihilism comes in). This goes at least somewhat along with creative-destruction,Hayekian naturalism, and Menger and Bohm-Bawerk's views on fashionable but incorrect ideas in academia.

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

Bert — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 17:30:26 GMT

Well, decadent has the meaning of decay (unless my online dictionary is wrong), so I sort of just made a redundant statement, but Gotham has a lot of wealth and at the same time is filled with decay, it goes even further how corrupt it's own "organs" are. You have the extravagant egotistical parties and people trying to "find work" in sewers.

When it comes to Nietzsche I'm borrowing the term "active nihilism" from a traditionalist stance, but this may also be in the sense of any type of decay and instead of trying to fix or counter it simply let it take it's course and try the best to be the one on top when shit hits the fan.

Re: Dark Knight Rises: Pro-Capitalist?

vive la insurrection — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 17:19:00 GMT

Interesting: I would probably view "decadent materialism" as the exact opposite of decay.

More to the point I don't see how Nietzsche could make any sense or be worth anything if he promoted any form of Platonized romantic anti-social behvaior. I never thought of Nietzsche in this light.

Than again, asmuch as I utilize and like Nietzsche - I am something like a liberal Stirnerite-Mengerian; I forget sometimes I am not a Nietzschean and he ends up moralizing in the end - and is probably to be used as a top notch auxillary philosopher to point to things when trying to set up an initial picture of "Austrianism".

I would also take umbrage with the term nihilist as a metaphysical starting position...as I view that in direct contrast with egoist. Nietzsche was not a nihilist (and perhaps not an uber-egoist, none the less he was closer to egoism).

On the movie being pro capitalist:

Not really. It's about wanting to blow something up dramatically due to vengence...and the people who know things are going to be blown sky high trying to prevent such a measure - that's it. Bane / Talia are just acting out a plan of revenge