General

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

Malachi — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 05:03:31 GMT

Glad to see that my idea was received favorably. I agree that "ad-hoc productionist" is literally suitable and untainted.

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

SkepticalMetal — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 03:50:04 GMT

Personally, I like the term "Rothbardian." Either that, or Market Anarchist. I think the term "capitalist" has become corrupted by people thinking that capitalism is corporatism, based on how the far-left and far-right advertises anti-capitalism by blaming it for things that it was never responsable. And Voluntaryism is too liable to be labelled through much more ridiculous accusations.

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

Anenome — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:03:10 GMT

Malachi:
Why dont we refer to people who embrace the doctrine and practice of catallacty as "producers" or "the production class"?

A 'productionist'? I like it.

And instead of 'anarcho' meant to mean a system of self-organization but which is often taken to mean something else, perhaps we can substitute in 'ad hoc' which actually does mean spontaneous self-organization, turning 'anarcho-capitalist' into ad hoc-productionist.

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

No2statism — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 21:25:12 GMT

I think he was trying to prove that labels are stupid, and I shouldn't have been so stupid as to use them so much without considering more. Malachi, no doubt in my mind, realizes that just because one isn't productive doesn't mean they're destructive, of course... I don't consider people or even corporations who pay negative taxes to be as destructive as Obama and Congress are. I guess we can all agree that "Republican Citizenship is almost as bad as, if not worse than, being a Subject under a Monarch, and that abolition of legislated force would be best".

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

gotlucky — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:30:08 GMT

lol, Malachi, I see what you did there.

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

Malachi — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:25:57 GMT

Why dont we refer to people who embrace the doctrine and practice of catallacty as "producers" or "the production class"?

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

grant.w.underwood — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:04:55 GMT

there are a lot of words that started off as a smear, but were later embraced.

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

Anenome — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:46:43 GMT

Wasn't the word 'capitalist' originally a smear term applied by the enemies of what we now call capitalism?

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

grant.w.underwood — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:41:29 GMT

all you need to tell anyone is that you are a capitalist.

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

Anenome — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:38:24 GMT

No2statism:

@Anenome: Anarchists didn't really start WWI, because it would not have been a world war if Wilson who was a non-anarchist hadn't increased American involvement in foreign affairs. However, the anarchists of that time certainly were leftist and anti-NAP, so I guess that is why Rothbard changed it to "anarcho-capitalist". I need to make a better effort to not refer to myself as an "anarchist"

Yeah, I refuse to use the term myself. Any term that can allow you to be conflated with anti-property, anti-hierarchy, anti-market communalistic anarchists is to me a very non-precise term indeed :\ Anarcho-capitalist isn't much better, imo.

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

No2statism — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:32:14 GMT

@Anenome: Anarchists didn't really start WWI, because it would not have been a world war if Wilson who was a non-anarchist hadn't increased American involvement in foreign affairs. However, the anarchists of that time certainly were leftist and anti-NAP, so I guess that is why Rothbard changed it to "anarcho-capitalist". I need to make a better effort to not refer to myself as an "anarchist"

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

SkepticalMetal — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 03:12:05 GMT

(Please visit the site to view this media)

Bloody hilarious.

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

Malachi — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:26:08 GMT

@No2statism, you should watch "Mozart Was A Red" by Murray Rothbard.

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

SkepticalMetal — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:21:44 GMT

Ayn Rand on Libertarians (1981):

"A monstrous, disgusting bunch of people" and "who plagarize my ideas when it fits their purpose."

So yeah, I'm not exactly too fond of her.

Re: Questions on ayn rand.

Anenome — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:04:16 GMT

gotlucky:

No, you are not. Ayn Rand supported the state because she lacked imagination - a bold claim about a novelist, eh? Seriously, she just couldn't envision a society functioning with a free market if it didn't have a monopoly on legitimate violence, (i.e. the state). I imagine one of the reasons was her distate for libertarians. She considered libertarians to be hedonists, even though libertarianism has nothing to do with hedonism.

For the leftist libertarians it largely does. Modern libertarians are still painted with that association. I watched Libertopia recently, which features a vignette on the push for pot legalization in New Hampshire by libertarians.

gotlucky:
I consider this to be intellectually dishonest on her part considering her close friendship with Murray Rothbard for a long time.

Didn't Rothbard reject the anarch label for a long time tho?

Honestly, I don't like the anarchist label either. It's been too long conflated with the leftist anarchists. Hell, anarchs started world war 1! Of course, at the time, they were leftist anarchists, more socialist and communalist than anything. Why use the same word as people who used aggressive violence for political change?

That's why I take the autarchist label instead, as referring to my own specific implementation of anarcho-capitalism. It means literally 'self-rule' rather that the 'anarch' meaning of 'no government.' Self-rule is actually closer to our true meaning, for we mean that the best government is one where we govern ourselves as sovereigns; whereas the anarch label implies that even self-government is dispensed with, leading to true chaos. The autarchist label therefore I consider the more apropos one. But unless and until such a label caught on, I understand why anyone would continue with the 'anarcho-capitalist' label.

gotlucky:
She was a great woman in many ways, but she was a very flawed person. Enjoy her novels, read some of her speeches and essays, and then move on to some more serious thinkers.

Read some Rand, then graduate on to Murray N. Rothbard, there's real meat ;)