General

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

Ed D. — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 06:02:13 GMT

Hi Dynamix , your question about dualism is a bit complicated , made even more so by the fact that , 1. I am not a physicist and , 2. since I am not God I don't have the capacity to plumb the depths and heights of these things and know them as they in fact are. So , the best I can do is to try to get a sense of these things and reason them out. And my reasoning may prove to be wrong , in which case I am always glad to amend my previously held opinions and embrace truth wherever I may find it. As to your surprise that you may have found a strange Mormon , at odds with the beliefs of his fellows , in the first instance your perception of me may not be quite correct , owing to a failure on my part to communicate clearly. Secondly , though Mormons tend to be united in belief on the major points of the Gospel of Jesus Christ , there is quite a wide variety of beliefs and views among Mormons about any number of subjects , both temporal and spiritual . Having made this introduction , I'll try to answer your questions above.

When I wrote that we need to keep in mind that matter exists in more than one way , I may have miscommunicated my intent. My intent was that matter is manifested in more than one way. There is the form of matter that we can see (physical / natural) in our current human condition and there is matter that we cannot see (spiritual). Joseph Smith said that spirit matter is more pure and refined than physical matter and that we cannot see spirit matter with our natural eyes. We can see natural matter (the physical body of flesh , bones , blood and other natural things) but there is matter which we cannot see unless we comprehend it with our spiritual faculties. It seems to me though , that spirit matter (which Joseph Smith described as "Intelligence") is the animating substance of physical matter. In the Bible we read from James "For as the body without the spirit is dead..."(James 2:26). It would appear that it is the spirit which animates the body , gives life to the physical. It was not until God breathed Adam's spirit into his formed physical body that Adam became a living soul. And without the spirit (spirit matter) the body is dead and inanimate. Yet , though the body is inanimate at death it remains in our view as physical matter , separate from the departed spirit matter (Intelligence) which gave the body life.

In all honesty , I have not really thought much about these things until this thread and am just now reasoning my way through, the things which I have just written above having given me more cause to consider their ramifications. Are physical and spiritual matter substantially different or are they the same kind of matter manifested differently to our senses , as water may be manifested as either a solid or a gas? Or is it the case that , since spirit matter has the quality of Intelligence and it animates the matter of the physical body (and presumably the other physical manifestations of matter as in trees , plants , animals , etc) is spirit matter substantially a different kind of matter than physical matter? I can't give you a definitive answer. I simply , at this point , don't know. Sorry.

The other question about the Arctic has already been answered by someone else. The quote does exist as you posted it here , though it has been errantly attributed to Joseph Smith by your source. The quote is actually found in the Journal of Discourses and was made by Orson Pratt during a sermon he gave (Discourse by Elder Orson Pratt , July 25 , 1875 , 18:57). I think that a careful reading of what Elder Pratt actually said will allay any concerns you might have that Elder Pratt was saying that the 10 Tribes are living somewhere in deep snows and ice of the North Pole. Please take notice that Elder Pratt referred to the "north" , a rather broad reference and to the Arctic regions. I looked up the places which constitute the Arctic region and found :

The Arctic includes the Arctic Ocean (which overlies the North Pole) and parts of Canada, Greenland (a territory of Denmark), Russia, the United States (Alaska), Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Finland.

It would seem , then , that Elder Pratt may have believed that the 10 Tribes spoken of had been scattered among these nations and would come to Zion from this "north" and these "Arctic regions" from among the countries noted above.

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

Dynamix — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 01:49:35 GMT

mormonchess:

"My question is, "Insofar as Joseph Smith is held by the Mormon church to be a prophet of God, is the belief that Jews have (or had) lived in the Arctic regions for 2,500 years an official one?"

Dynamix, Joseph Smith never made this claim, and I am having difficulty finding your reference. Which volume of the Journal of Discourses are you referring to? The only Joseph Smith sermon that ever appeared in the JoD was his King Follet Sermon, which had nothing to do with the Jews or the ten tribes.

I've been a life-long student of Mormonism, and I have never encountered this Joseph Smith "quote".

I just checked all the volumes of the JoD (on http://journalofdiscourses.org/) and couldn't find it either, so I emailed the writer of the paper that I found it in and just now received a reply that said his inbox is over quota, so he didn't receive my question. It looks like (as you said) Joseph Smith never said that. I apologize to you and Ed for misrepresenting your church history. I'll be more careful to check my sources in the future.

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

mormonchess — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:06:31 GMT

"My question is, "Insofar as Joseph Smith is held by the Mormon church to be a prophet of God, is the belief that Jews have (or had) lived in the Arctic regions for 2,500 years an official one?"

Dynamix, Joseph Smith never made this claim, and I am having difficulty finding your reference. Which volume of the Journal of Discourses are you referring to? The only Joseph Smith sermon that ever appeared in the JoD was his King Follet Sermon, which had nothing to do with the Jews or the ten tribes.

I've been a life-long student of Mormonism, and I have never encountered this Joseph Smith "quote".

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

Dynamix — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:27:50 GMT

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply.

Ed D.:

[...] When we talk about Mormon metaphysics as being materialistic we have to keep in mind that the materialism we are talking about exists in more than one way (physical and spiritual materialism ) and that the effects and operations on matter in the spiritual realm vs. physical / natural realm [...]

Are you claiming a metaphysical dualism? I've never heard this from a Mormon before. Only that "spiritual matter" is smaller physical matter--so small that we haven't yet observed it. If my understanding is correct, "spiritual matter" should be, at least hypothetically, empirically falsifiable. If it's not (falsifiable), would you say that "spiritual matter" is supernatural in nature (this would obviously be dualism again)?

Also, please address the following...

Dynamix:

[...]

"I do not know how much before the ten tribes will come from the north; but after Zion is built in Jackson County, and after the Temple is built upon that spot of ground where the corner stone was laid in 1831; after the glory of God in the form of a cloud by day shall rest upon that Temple, and by night the shining of a flaming fire will fill the whole heavens round about; after every dwelling place upon Mount Zion shall be clothed upon as with a pillar of fire by night, and a cloud by day, about that period of time, the ten tribes will be heard of, away in the north, a greaty company, as Jeremiah says, coming down from the northern regions, coming to sing in the height of the latter day Zion. Their souls will be as a watered garden, and they will not sorrow any more at all, as they have been doing during the twenty-five hundred long years they have dwelt in the Arctic regions." - Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, p. 68.

[...] My question is, "Insofar as Joseph Smith is held by the Mormon church to be a prophet of God, is the belief that Jews have (or had) lived in the Arctic regions for 2,500 years an official one?"

[...]

...because I'm pretty sure that is falsifiable.

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

Ed D. — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:54:51 GMT

Dynamix , the thing you must keep in mind is that when we talk about " all known and properly understood scientific laws" we are talking about them from the point of view of our natural observations of their effects and operations in the physical / natural realm. When we talk about Mormon metaphysics as being materialistic we have to keep in mind that the materialism we are talking about exists in more than one way (physical and spiritual materialism ) and that the effects and operations on matter in the spiritual realm vs. physical / natural realm may not be "all know and properly understood".

Joseph Smith held that there is no such thing as immaterial matter , but that not all matter is the same (that is spirit matter is more pure and refined than physical matter ) ; that matter cannot be destroyed nor created ; that all things were first spiritually created (organized from exisiting matter) before they were physically created ; and that after death and at the resurrection our physical bodies will be changed , clothed with glory and as is explained in the Bible "we shall be changed" and the physical / natural state is "raised in incorruption" with the spirit. This incorrupt , changed physical state (Physical+Spirit+Glory) applies to all creation , not to just created man ( And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; Rev 21:2).

So , the observable and known laws that apply here in the natural world and their effects and operations may be quite different in the spiritual / incorrupt physical world to come that is called Heaven. It may even be that the 2nd law of thermodynamics may not apply there in the same way as it does here , or perhaps it doesn't apply there at all. We'll all just have to wait and see,

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

Dynamix — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:09:18 GMT

Never mind. I submit this thread to the ether.

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

mormonchess — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:59:12 GMT

"Rational discussion of any religious matter is simply impossible as rationality and faith are mutually exclusive."

I couldn't disagree with you more. This kind of generalization is just as pig-headed as the statements made by ranting evangelicals on the extreme religious right. You're suggesting that we can't have "rational discussions" of religious matters? Good grief, people get their PhDs in "Religion".

And I would take issue that I don't live my life with equal doses of both faith and rationality.

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

Dynamix — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:58:18 GMT

Mark B.:

Any view of "heaven" or "hell" for that matter must simply be taken as a matter of faith, without recourse to reason. Whether you are dealing with traditional Christian, Catholic, Mormon, Jewish, Islamic or other religion, it is all the same. Reason and scientific method cannot be applied. Either you choose to accept that religion by faith. or you reject it. Rational discussion of any religious matter is simply impossible as rationality and faith are mutually exclusive. Personally, I have chosen reason and the scientific method and rejected faith. Thus any discussion of candidates faith issues is irrelevent, UNTIL they reach the point of injecting those faith issues into politics.

Your personal epistemological qualifications are not the topic being discussed. If you want to assert the futility of religious doctrine do it in another thread.

-1

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

Mark B. — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:46:14 GMT

I will redact this post. Not withdrawing my sentiments, mind you. But it is tangentical to the topic and on that ground only I will redact.

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

Bostwick — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:27:36 GMT

Dynamix:
When all usable energy runs out there will be nothing left to perpetuate those heavens, and no supernatural agents or powers to fix the problem.

I don't know how Mormons reconcile Jesus and their version of the after life, but these problems are usually met with "its turtles all the way down."

(I dont believe in an afterlife, so dont worry, I'm not mormon bashing)

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

Dynamix — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:12:53 GMT

mormonchess:

That's pretty much what I am saying, but please keep in mind that I am not a spokesman for the Mormon church; I am simply a Mormon who has read widely on a variety of topics. And you probably know far more about physics than I do.

Nah, I probably don't. I don't recall having ever taken a physics class (shh...). Your reply is fair enough. I don't think the discussion can be taken much farther from here, though.

Moving on to another topic (but still somewhat within the larger context of Mormon apologetics), I would like to know what your thoughts on this are:

"I do not know how much before the ten tribes will come from the north; but after Zion is built in Jackson County, and after the Temple is built upon that spot of ground where the corner stone was laid in 1831; after the glory of God in the form of a cloud by day shall rest upon that Temple, and by night the shining of a flaming fire will fill the whole heavens round about; after every dwelling place upon Mount Zion shall be clothed upon as with a pillar of fire by night, and a cloud by day, about that period of time, the ten tribes will be heard of, away in the north, a greaty company, as Jeremiah says, coming down from the northern regions, coming to sing in the height of the latter day Zion. Their souls will be as a watered garden, and they will not sorrow any more at all, as they have been doing during the twenty-five hundred long years they have dwelt in the Arctic regions." - Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, p. 68.

I've found a few startling assertions made by historical Mormon authority figures, but this one strikes me as one of the more...spectacular ones. It's also falsifiable, as we can examine the Arctic regions for ourselves. My question is, "Insofar as Joseph Smith is held by the Mormon church to be a prophet of God, is the belief that Jews have (or had) lived in the Arctic regions for 2,500 years an official one?"

I apologize if any of this sounds belligerent. I'm really just very curious.

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

mormonchess — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 06:21:57 GMT

"Or are you saying you believe there is some sort of undiscovered (or undiscoverable) natural Meta-Law that invalidates the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in some cases?"

That's pretty much what I am saying, but please keep in mind that I am not a spokesman for the Mormon church; I am simply a Mormon who has read widely on a variety of topics. And you probably know far more about physics than I do.

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

Dynamix — Mon, 10 Dec 2007 23:39:23 GMT

whitespiral:

Through free-market incentives, innovation, and technology. ;-)

FTW!

mormonchess:

Well, I'm a lifelong Mormon, and I must say, I'm intrigued by your provocative and insightful question. In answer I would say that Yes, Mormon metaphysics is materialist in nature, however, there is a caveat: we also believe there are materials that are too fine or pure to be measured using non-spiritual means. In other words, no telescope is going to find Kolob. We believe in other dimensions or multiverses, if you will.

Your query as to how can we expect to live in heavens for eternity when the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics breaks everything down is simple. We Mormons believe in a counteracting power that is so thorough and pervasive that there is no worrying about being broken down to star dust: it's the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

You mean, "a counteracting [natural] power," right? It must be natural if it's material in nature. But how is this natural power exercised without the means by which natural things are animated (energy)? Wouldn't the Mormon conception of Jesus be disposing of the very energy he'd be trying to preserve in making an effort to stop its depletion? Or are you saying you believe there is some sort of undiscovered (or undiscoverable) natural Meta-Law that invalidates the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in some cases? Perhaps something else?

I have a few more questions, but I'll hang on to them for the moment.

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

mormonchess — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 22:12:26 GMT

"What struck me is how hardworking, urbane, educated, and genuinely friendly everyone was. When I learned more about the theology of Mormonism however, the first impressions that came to mind is how these profoundly sophisticated people could believe so deeply in something that to me seemed like a scam. "

Yeah, it's a sort of cognitive dissonance is it not? My answer to your statement would be that there must be something to this religion. My father was a convert to Mormonism in his adulthood and his initial reaction to hearing the story of Joseph Smith was loud laughter. Yet, there is something compelling about the notion of a modern day prophet. And really, when you dig down into the roots of Joseph's story, you find that you can never really prove or disprove anything using rational thought or analysis. Either he really saw what he said he saw, or he's the biggest fraud in the history of American religion. Kind of the same gambit with Jesus: he was either the Son of God or he wasn't, because only true Messiahs or lunatics go around claiming to be "one with the Father" and the Son of God.

"I hope you don't take the above as direct criticism or disrespect toward your faith-I am merely stating my honest first thoughts. I am open to be convinced otherwise, and both the fact that your Afterlife is material in nature, and your references to Multiverses and other dimensions make me suspect I might."

No worries. You don't grow up Mormon without appreciating the fact that people have differing opinions. You are free to embrace or ridicule! I spent a few years going to a private Southern Baptist school so I can pretty take anything.

"With regard to Romney, I had the initial wishful opinion that a truly acomplished business guy (as opposed to GWB who is so often compared to Romney as "another Harvard MBA") would be more free-market and much less big government compared to what we have seen now. What worries me though is that like Reigan, he would just replace big government in society, with a huge government in the military. "

I really have the same concern. As much as I like Romney personally, I don't think I can truly endorse his candidacy. I'm tired of the Federal monster, and I have never been a fan of his candidancy. My wife loves him though, but she's rather apolitical.

Re: Romney has a problem: Mormon heaven runs out of steam?

whitespiral — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 11:22:34 GMT

Dear Mormonchess,

Since you're here, I'd love to ask you a couple of questions about your faith if you don't mind.

I visited Utah last year (I'm not American BTW) and met many Mormons, mainly in a professional setting. What struck me is how hardworking, urbane, educated, and genuinely friendly everyone was. When I learned more about the theology of Mormonism however, the first impressions that came to mind is how these profoundly sophisticated people could believe so deeply in something that to me seemed like a scam.

I hope you don't take the above as direct criticism or disrespect toward your faith-I am merely stating my honest first thoughts. I am open to be convinced otherwise, and both the fact that your Afterlife is material in nature, and your references to Multiverses and other dimensions make me suspect I might.

With regard to Romney, I had the initial wishful opinion that a truly acomplished business guy (as opposed to GWB who is so often compared to Romney as "another Harvard MBA") would be more free-market and much less big government compared to what we have seen now. What worries me though is that like Reigan, he would just replace big government in society, with a huge government in the military.