General

Re: Who was the worst president?

Man — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 23:40:31 GMT

TravisWadman:

Second, you are incorrect by pinning the printing money crime on Lincoln. If you knew anything about history you would know that the Union did NOT print fiat money, but rather did an OUTSTANDING job financing the war through the sales of bonds (known as 5-20s) by Jay Cooke. In fact, these mentioned sales of bonds were 100% redeemable in gold and were done to PREVENT printing money.

No. The United States ran large deficits and printed money (Greenback/Legal Tender Acts) to finance the war. It also established the National Banks in the National Banking Act 1863 to help manage the money supply and debt.. Not to mention an income tax.

Anyways, one day I sat down and wrote down a list of the 43 presidents in a complete ranking.

With 1 being the best, to 43 being the worst, here they are

Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

1. Martin Van Buren

2. Ruther B. Hayes

3. Grover Cleveland

4. John Tyler

5. Chester Arthur

6. Warren G. Harding

7. George Washington

8. Ulysses S. Grant

9. Calvin Coolidge

10. Zachary Taylor

11. Dwight D. Eisenhower

12. Jimmy Carter

13. Andrew Johnson

14. James Garfield

15. James Monroe

16. William Henry Harrison

17. John Quincy Adams

18. Gerald Ford

19. Bill Clinton

20. James K. Polk

21. Benjamin Harrison

22. Millard Fillmore

23. John Adams

24. Thomas Jefferson

25. Andrew Jackson

26. James Buchanan

27. Franklin Pierce

28. James Madison

29. John F. Kennedy

30. William Howard Taft

31. Abraham Lincoln

32. William McKinley

33. Richard Nixon

34. Ronald Reagan

35. George H. Bush

36. Theodore Roosevelt

37. Lyndon b. Johnson

38. Harry S. Truman

39. Herbert Hoover

40. Barack Obama

41. George W. Bush

42. Franklin D. Roosevelt

43. Woodrow Wilson

Re: Who was the worst president?

Juan — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 23:34:05 GMT

TravisWadman:
Also, Killing people in WAR is NOT MURDER.

No ? Why ?

Re: Who was the worst president?

liberty student — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 23:26:15 GMT

TravisWadman:
Also, Killing people in WAR is NOT MURDER.

Sure it is.

TravisWadman:
Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of another, therefore killing in war is not murder.

Every government legalizes murder for the purpose of war.

Big deal. Laws as made by the state are meaningless and arbitrary. They are not rooted in any morality or ethic except that which drives the mob and power seeking.

TravisWadman:
I kind of agree with FDR being a bad president. But everyone knows Warren Harding was the worst president, hence the "Warren Harding effect"

You have so much to unlearn.

Re: Who was the worst president?

I. Ryan — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 23:25:37 GMT

Dondoolee:
1) With regards to your "almighty" comment: This really isn't an argument made by you, or a very weak one at best. More importantly, if you haven't figured this out yet; comments like this tend to lead to very unproductive conversations, particularly on a thread that has little or nothing to do with theism vs atheism. This is baiting for an argument well left field of the topic presented. I say this is an atheist.

It is not an argument, but it is an interesting observation. The existence of an all-powerful ruler of the universe contrasts violently with the worldview of a classical liberal. If you believe in a personal God and you are a classical liberal, you should feel cognitive dissonance to say the least.

Re: Who was the worst president?

William — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 23:05:51 GMT

TravisWadman:

I must first comment on how ridiculous it is that an Austrian who challenges all established institution would make a comment like "I pray that these men recieve mercy in their judgement from The Almighty." Believing in an "Almighty" is as outrageous as believing in the State as an omnipotent entity.

Second, you are incorrect by pinning the printing money crime on Lincoln. If you knew anything about history you would know that the Union did NOT print fiat money, but rather did an OUTSTANDING job financing the war through the sales of bonds (known as 5-20s) by Jay Cooke. In fact, these mentioned sales of bonds were 100% redeemable in gold and were done to PREVENT printing money.

Woodrow Wilson did not "make" the Federal Reserve. He gave his signature to a bill drafted by others. He even regretted his decision and with a little effort (which I am not willing to provide) you can find plenty of quotes from him saying how he realized his mistake and he had forfeited the rights of the civilians to the banking elites.

When Truman came into office, he did not even know we were producing an atomic bomb, so to blame him for the mass murder of civilians with the use of atomic bombs is a scapegoat. Also, Killing people in WAR is NOT MURDER. Regardless of your views or beliefs, war is (or at least was) legally justified through declarations of war. Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of another, therefore killing in war is not murder.

I kind of agree with FDR being a bad president. But everyone knows Warren Harding was the worst president, hence the "Warren Harding effect"

1) With regards to your "almighty" comment: This really isn't an argument made by you, or a very weak one at best. More importantly, if you haven't figured this out yet; comments like this tend to lead to very unproductive conversations, particularly on a thread that has little or nothing to do with theism vs atheism. This is baiting for an argument well left field of the topic presented. I say this is an atheist.

2) Good point made by Lincoln with the bonds, however it is a minor issue when people talk about why they hate Lincoln

3) On WIlson: If you can find quotes of a criminal regretting his criminal action, he is still a criminal. That aspect of your argument is a big who cares. Likewise, resposibility ultimatly is on the person with the authority to or not to let an action happen.

4) Who cares what Truman did or did not know before he came into office, he knew the bomb existed when he gave the thumbs up to drop on a civilian target. Would you call Osama bin Laden a murderer for ordering planes to hit a building, or Hitler a murder for ording the deaths of millions of slavs? Also you seem to think war is a legit institution of the state (which you also seem to think is a good institution). If that is your mind set you are way out of step with most peoples line of thoughts on this site.

It would probably be more productive to start a thread explaining why you think war/ the state is legit, rather than talking about US presidents, as there is going to be a lot of talking over peoples heads due to the major differences in ideologies.

Re: Who was the worst president?

TravisWadman — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 21:34:55 GMT

This is contradictory to what people have been saying on the thread regarding the nature of the Fed. Austrians are complaining that the Fed is not private at all and that it answers to the president. You claim that the Fed would not be influenced by the president, thus making it at least somewhat private. Care to get your facts straight?

Re: Who was the worst president?

TravisWadman — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 21:31:11 GMT

I must first comment on how ridiculous it is that an Austrian who challenges all established institution would make a comment like "I pray that these men recieve mercy in their judgement from The Almighty." Believing in an "Almighty" is as outrageous as believing in the State as an omnipotent entity.

Second, you are incorrect by pinning the printing money crime on Lincoln. If you knew anything about history you would know that the Union did NOT print fiat money, but rather did an OUTSTANDING job financing the war through the sales of bonds (known as 5-20s) by Jay Cooke. In fact, these mentioned sales of bonds were 100% redeemable in gold and were done to PREVENT printing money.

Woodrow Wilson did not "make" the Federal Reserve. He gave his signature to a bill drafted by others. He even regretted his decision and with a little effort (which I am not willing to provide) you can find plenty of quotes from him saying how he realized his mistake and he had forfeited the rights of the civilians to the banking elites.

When Truman came into office, he did not even know we were producing an atomic bomb, so to blame him for the mass murder of civilians with the use of atomic bombs is a scapegoat. Also, Killing people in WAR is NOT MURDER. Regardless of your views or beliefs, war is (or at least was) legally justified through declarations of war. Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of another, therefore killing in war is not murder.

I kind of agree with FDR being a bad president. But everyone knows Warren Harding was the worst president, hence the "Warren Harding effect"

Re: Who was the worst president?

JackCuyler — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 20:52:26 GMT

MacFall:

The Japanese had already offered conditional surrender, two months before Truman ordered the bombing. Two weeks before the bomb was dropped, they were making overtures of unconditional surrender. So Truman went ahead and killed a few hundred thousand people, then gave the Japanese the conditions they had originally requested.

Not true at all. The emperor refused to surrender, under any conditions, even after Hiroshima. There is some debate as to whether the emperor had actually known that Hiroshima had been bombed at the time of his refusal. The infrastructure was so decemated, it's quite possible word had not reached him yet,

MacFall:
Truman was a mass-murderer. Stop trying to apply a different set of morals to the actions of a regular "private" individual, and one acting on the behalf of a fictional collective "nation state". The mental and philosophical gymnastics will drive you insane, eventually.

Agreed.

Re: Who was the worst president?

I. Ryan — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:29:02 GMT

MacFall:
The Japanese had already offered conditional surrender, two months before Truman ordered the bombing. Two weeks before the bomb was dropped, they were making overtures of unconditional surrender. So Truman went ahead and killed a few hundred thousand people, then gave the Japanese the conditions they had originally requested.

Truman was a mass-murderer. Stop trying to apply a different set of morals to the actions of a regular "private" individual, and one acting on the behalf of a fictional collective "nation state". The mental and philosophical gymnastics will drive you insane, eventually.

Where did you get this information? What did we do to lead them to unconditionally surrender before any invasion or bombing?

Re: Who was the worst president?

MacFall — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:45:18 GMT

The Japanese had already offered conditional surrender, two months before Truman ordered the bombing. Two weeks before the bomb was dropped, they were making overtures of unconditional surrender. So Truman went ahead and killed a few hundred thousand people, then gave the Japanese the conditions they had originally requested.

Truman was a mass-murderer. Stop trying to apply a different set of morals to the actions of a regular "private" individual, and one acting on the behalf of a fictional collective "nation state". The mental and philosophical gymnastics will drive you insane, eventually.

Re: Who was the worst president?

Erickk — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:03:48 GMT

banned:

The japanese military was killing people in china, so the solution is to nuke a bunch of japanese civilians? Great stratagy.

Fine, but how r u gonna end the war?

Re: Who was the worst president?

Erickk — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:00:27 GMT

Fine, but how r u gonna end the war?

Re: Who was the worst president?

sicsempertyrannis — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 04:17:59 GMT

Spideynw:

Laughing Man:

Ansury:
Fair enough I guess, but I'm still gonna have to go with the likes of FDR, Wilson, Lincoln, etc.!

But we expect that from statists. I feel it is much more devastating for a 'libertarian' to become a 'statesman' then a statist.

Didn't Lincoln have a lot of libertarian rhetoric?

No. He didn't hide that he was a tyrant.

Abraham Lincoln:

Plainly, the central idea of secession, is the essence of anarchy. A majority, held in restraint by constitutional checks and limitations, and always changing easily with deliberate changes of popular opinions and sentiments, is the only true sovereign of a free people. Whoever rejects it, does, of necessity, fly to anarchy or to despotism.

Sounds like a democracy worshipper, 1861 style.

Re: Who was the worst president?

Spideynw — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 04:05:15 GMT

Laughing Man:

Ansury:
Fair enough I guess, but I'm still gonna have to go with the likes of FDR, Wilson, Lincoln, etc.!

But we expect that from statists. I feel it is much more devastating for a 'libertarian' to become a 'statesman' then a statist.

Didn't Lincoln have a lot of libertarian rhetoric?

Re: Who was the worst president?

Andrew Cain — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 03:13:57 GMT

Ansury:
Fair enough I guess, but I'm still gonna have to go with the likes of FDR, Wilson, Lincoln, etc.!

But we expect that from statists. I feel it is much more devastating for a 'libertarian' to become a 'statesman' then a statist.