General

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

John Ess — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:17:28 GMT

Raimondo's good because his word is the truth and he is an excellent writer. Nothing to do with radicalism or conservatism.

Bigotry (in the general sense of circular reasoning or polylogism) and novelty are not virtues.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

Juan — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:06:49 GMT

LS:
What could be more radical than voluntary feudalism?

Wait. Radical doesn't mean deranged.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

hayekianxyz — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:04:31 GMT

MacFall:
Giles is a feudalist. He has proclaimed that he is not a radical libertarian. I don't think he is.

I am a radical libertarian, in fact, more radical than most here. Since, the society I envision is more radical than that imagined by most here.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

Nitroadict — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:09:19 GMT

Marko:

liberty student:

What could be more radical than voluntary feudalism?

BDSM.

You mean what we have now?

*ba dum bum*

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

Marko — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:05:58 GMT

liberty student:

What could be more radical than voluntary feudalism?

BDSM.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

liberty student — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:50:09 GMT

MacFall:
Giles is a feudalist. He has proclaimed that he is not a radical libertarian

What could be more radical than voluntary feudalism?

MacFall:
A left-libertarian cannot be a statist.

There are lots of non-left anti-state libertarians. That definition is a fail.

MacFall:
People who are not LL's use the term as a perjorative to describe people who disagree with them.

Nonsense. LL's spend a lot of time complaining about everyone else. Do you know how ignorant it is to call someone "vulgar" for their beliefs, when you're alredy an anti-statist and for voluntarism? I'll tell you. It's really ignorant. And that is what LLs do to people within their own sphere who are not "perfect" by their own sliding scale.

MacFall:
The actual meaning of the term is useful because it encompasses the whole body of anarchist libertarians who reject political action as a legitimate means of achieving their goals.

Nonsense. Most of us here hold those sentiments, and most of those people again, do not call themselves LL. Oh, but we're vulgar because even though we are apolitical and don't support the state, LLs like Carson and Long like to perpetuate the myth that we believe WalMart is a product of the free market.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

MacFall — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:25:08 GMT

Nerditarian:
So Giles and Stranger are left-libertarians?

I don't know about Stranger. Giles is a feudalist. He has proclaimed that he is not a radical libertarian. I don't think he is.

What happens if someone was a microsecessionist minarchist?

A left-libertarian cannot be a statist. That would be a contradiction in terms. The term "left-libertarian" was created to distinguish anarchists from the minarchist, "big-L" political Libertarians in the first place, as I understand it from Konkin's writings.

Now does that include people who supported Ron Paul, but had no pretensions that Ron Paul would be elected?

Possibly, but not necessarily. Clarification below:

Would you deny that Ron Paul has been the greatest recruiting method for libertarians in a generation or more?

No, I would not. In fact, I supported him for that very purpose, even as I opposed the idea of a libertarian politician on principle. I see people like him as an educational tool.

Again, this definition is so vague and so different from the way people who are NOT LLs use the term, I think the term is practically useless.

People who are not LL's use the term as a perjorative to describe people who disagree with them. The actual meaning of the term is useful because it encompasses the whole body of anarchist libertarians who reject political action as a legitimate means of achieving their goals.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

Juan — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 07:07:14 GMT

Well, I never knew that libertarianism was conservatism (or vice-versa ?) until Giles informed me.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

Stranger — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 05:33:34 GMT

I never even knew there was such a thing as left-libertarians until they started distancing themselves from me.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

Nerditarian — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 04:59:47 GMT

MacFall:
microsecessionists

So Giles and Stranger are left-libertarians? What happens if someone was a microsecessionist minarchist?

MacFall:
It excludes partyarchs and others who believe that the system can be changed through the system.

Now does that include people who supported Ron Paul, but had no pretensions that Ron Paul would be elected? Would you deny that Ron Paul has been the greatest recruiting method for libertarians in a generation or more? Again, this definition is so vague and so different from the way people who are NOT LLs use the term, I think the term is practically useless.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

garegin — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 04:45:06 GMT

exactly. who is a more of a rightist? a tribe in the amazon who pull their women from their hair but want to preceive their communistic lifestyle (hence conserve) or a pro-gay rights statist.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

liberty student — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 04:24:59 GMT

There is no such thing as a right libertarian.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

MacFall — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 02:19:21 GMT

Nerditarian:

So by your rubric LLs would only include agorism and a few fellow travelers, no?

Anti-political libertarians. That limits the definition to anarchists, but especially favors those who advocate market-based strategies for opposing the state. Agorists, "gulchers", civil disobedients, people like Sam from the Obscured Truth Network (which isn't exactly civil disobedience, but it involves challenging the legitimacy of the government in court), microsecessionists, seasteaders (or their like in the Liberty Colony model), and others in similar viens. It excludes partyarchs and others who believe that the system can be changed through the system.

That's not the common definition which tends to be much more loosely used: cultural leftists who tend to be more favorably predisposed to expressing distaste for commerce.

I know of some so-called "civil libertarians" who dislike commerce, but all of the self-described left-libertarians I know personally (myself included) are market anarchists.

It is true that many LLs are cultural leftists. You certainly don't find many cultural leftists simultaneously embracing the free market and political solutions. But it does not follow that a left-libertarian must be a cultural leftist. I am a left-libertarian, but I am also a Christian with fairly conservative personal morals.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

liberty student — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 07:26:17 GMT

MacFall:
Just because you didn't come to your understanding through that route does not mean it is invalid.

Yeah clearly what is good for the goose is not good for the gander.

Re: Raimondo and left-/right- libertarianism

Brainpolice — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 07:16:38 GMT

MacFall, meet libertystudent. Prepare to be misrepresented.