General

Re: Income tax

eliotn — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 06:49:20 GMT

nazgulnarsil:

Protip:

1: every government tells the story of its founding as the story of heroes casting off the yoke of oppression.

2: every government then claims to be the legitimate descendants of the founding government.

In the case of the USA neither is true.

That is awesome, that is true, that is what I used to believe (at least for the US). Why did I trust the government in the first place? I would not use the word "every", though, are you sure this has been true for every government sofar?

Re: Income tax

laminustacitus — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 06:18:38 GMT

Without arguing against the contemporary (i.e. post Civil War) understanding of the Constitution, it is impossible to argue that the income tax is unconsitutiona.

Re: Income tax

nazgulnarsil — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 05:45:05 GMT

I suggest Ideological Origins of the American Revolution supplemented with primary sources such as this:

http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1130&Itemid=264

or for something more thourough

http://www.archive.org/details/peteroliversorig007727mbp

Protip:

1: every government tells the story of its founding as the story of heroes casting off the yoke of oppression.

2: every government then claims to be the legitimate descendants of the founding government.

In the case of the USA neither is true.

Re: Income tax

Andrew Cain — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 04:30:29 GMT

Just destroy the legitimacy of the Constitution, that rids you of your income tax problem. I suggest Lysander Spooner's No Treason.

Re: Income tax

Eric — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 04:10:19 GMT

Spideynw:

There are plenty of refutations on the internet if you google it. But I myself do not care to argue it, since the Constitution is illegitimate in the first place. And anyone that thinks it is illegal will say it is illegal no matter what you show them.

I was just wondering because I was argueing with my Constituional law teacher about it.

I am not claiming to endorse it, but argue in the confines of it for the sake of arguing.

Re: Income tax

Spideynw — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 04:06:02 GMT

There are plenty of refutations on the internet if you google it. But I myself do not care to argue it, since the Constitution is illegitimate in the first place. And anyone that thinks it is illegal will say it is illegal no matter what you show them.

Re: Income tax

Eric — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:57:27 GMT

yea i agree with that

Re: Income tax

nazgulnarsil — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:53:31 GMT

the constitution as it is written hasn't been followed since the civil war. the constitution was written to govern a federation of mostly autonomous states. the vast majority of federal laws written after the civil war would have been found unconstitutional before it.

Re: Income tax

Eric — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:50:17 GMT

nazgulnarsil:

you're working off the assumption that the government's authority to tax must come from a legal legitimacy. this is not so. the government's authority to tax comes from a gun. laws "ratified" by the "majority" is just a veneer by which power is disguised.

I understand that, as I said I am against that, I'm am merely talking about it being as constitutional(or not).

Re: Income tax

nazgulnarsil — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:48:40 GMT

you're working off the assumption that the government's authority to tax must come from a legal legitimacy. this is not so. the government's authority to tax comes from a gun. laws "ratified" by the "majority" is just a veneer by which power is disguised.

Income tax

Eric — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:35:55 GMT

Firstly I am obvoiusly against this ideologically, but when argueing about the income tax I hit a few ruts.

First off the claim the 16th amendment allows for an income tax. But in Stantan vs Baltic Mining the supreme court ruled that the amendment did not allow any new taxation(I believe, correct me if I am wrong).

I have also heard that in that same case, they said that the income tax was already legal under a direct tax which is allowed by constituion.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"-Constituion

Thanks.