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Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

Thedesolateone — Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:10:16 GMT

Freiheit:

Oh, the many similar stories I could tell you from my economics classes. I'll be a little sad when I graduate from college this summer and won't be able to debate my professors anymore.

That's usually how most of my classes go. I start out in the class participating a lot, the professor loves me for being so active, I keep shooting down/disproving the professor's socialist/statist propaganda, the professor never admits they're wrong (they usually say something along the lines of "hmm, you make some interesting points--I'll have to get back to you on that" [they never do]), then the professor calls on me less and less, and by the end of the class I rarely bother anymore.

I've kind of given up on contesting the state propaganda in my college courses at the present. I don't think I'm ever going to change any professor's mind, I don't think my classmates care for it, and I don't want to jeopardize my grades. If the course mandates "class participation" as part of the grade, I speak up, and whenever I have to give a presentation or write a paper, I make my views absolutely clear, but other than that, I think it might just be better to try to fly under the radar.

The "you make some interesting points" thing always comes at me, but only along with the assumption that the contentions I refuted were actually correct, and my points were just "points" rather than anything concrete. I hate to think that the next three years of university will be filled with knuckling down, but I'm not prepared to do so, even if it worsens my degree. Saying that, I think I'm going somewhere pretty tolerant of opposing views.

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

Josiah Schmidt — Sat, 24 Jan 2009 04:17:39 GMT

Oh, the many similar stories I could tell you from my economics classes. I'll be a little sad when I graduate from college this summer and won't be able to debate my professors anymore.

That's usually how most of my classes go. I start out in the class participating a lot, the professor loves me for being so active, I keep shooting down/disproving the professor's socialist/statist propaganda, the professor never admits they're wrong (they usually say something along the lines of "hmm, you make some interesting points--I'll have to get back to you on that" [they never do]), then the professor calls on me less and less, and by the end of the class I rarely bother anymore.

I've kind of given up on contesting the state propaganda in my college courses at the present. I don't think I'm ever going to change any professor's mind, I don't think my classmates care for it, and I don't want to jeopardize my grades. If the course mandates "class participation" as part of the grade, I speak up, and whenever I have to give a presentation or write a paper, I make my views absolutely clear, but other than that, I think it might just be better to try to fly under the radar.

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

ryanpatgray — Sat, 24 Jan 2009 03:49:34 GMT

Daniel Waite:
krazy kaju:

Please, don't leave us with this cliffhanger. How would he "privatize" universal health care?

I'd love to know, too. He said he'd "wait until next week" or something. I'll definitely update this thread if he goes into detail. I doubt he will though.

Please do. I would love to know how this goes. I don't know the teacher obviously but it could be that he was deliberately waiting because he wants the students to point out why it won't work. Forcing the students to use their brains. I have had profs do that sort of thing and, if the prof is any good, it can be valuable.

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

krazy kaju — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:14:46 GMT

Daniel Waite:
I've been told this before; can you give specifics? My past is checkered with conflicts involving ideals, from family, to friends to employers. I've been booted from houses, briefly stopped talking to a few friends and have been fired or quit a number of jobs. I've been told I lack tact.

Anyway, provided I don't personally insult the teacher, and do the work assigned, what specifically should I avoid?

This is hard to describe. Try to be polite and avoid being rude at all costs. Don't blurt anything out, think through what you'll say, don't let yourself seem angry or distraught, etc. There's nothing wrong with political debate as long as you're not emotional. Even if the other person uses emotions and logical fallacies, you have to persevere. This is especially important for ideological minorities like you and I.

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

laminustacitus — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:23:18 GMT

Daniel Waite:

I've been told this before; can you give specifics? My past is checkered with conflicts involving ideals, from family, to friends to employers. I've been booted from houses, briefly stopped talking to a few friends and have been fired or quit a number of jobs. I've been told I lack tact.

Anyway, provided I don't personally insult the teacher, and do the work assigned, what specifically should I avoid?

Don't be arrogent, you can argue with teachers all you want as long as you don't carry the I-already-know-everything-there-is-to-learn-and-should-be-teaching-your-class air around you, that's a sure way to make an enemy. During classes, do everything in absolute moderation unless you can add to what the teacher is saying, rather than buntly shooting it down, but when it comes to reports and tests you can be blunt about your opinions if you still provide the material that they ask for.

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

Justin D — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:49:15 GMT

I used to make arguments with Professors, and guess what, I had to retake classes. You know your in for a rough semester, when the first day in your US History class, the head honcho promptly proclaims she is a Roosevelt-Progressive. I never instigated arguments, she invited my answers. Due to my french last name, she thought it was fitting for me to explain what lassiez faire meant. She got a lengthier response than she thought she would. She made us read Black Boy about a black communist and his struggle. Talked about the Depression. Relentless elitist left winger I must say. I can quote her saying, "If Barack Obama can take on the Clintons, why can't he take on the terrorists." Blew me away.

Just sit there and nod your head. Get the diploma, and move on.

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

MatthewWilliam — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:40:10 GMT

Daniel Waite:

I've been told this before; can you give specifics? My past is checkered with conflicts involving ideals, from family, to friends to employers. I've been booted from houses, briefly stopped talking to a few friends and have been fired or quit a number of jobs. I've been told I lack tact.

Anyway, provided I don't personally insult the teacher, and do the work assigned, what specifically should I avoid?

Ive often been accused of being condescending and obnoxious in arguments. Tactfulness is important - try letting him know that you understand his side clearly, then refute it. If your teacher ignores you youve pretty much won. Like all people who have their ideas challenged, your teacher will actively resist. Imagine how you would feel if you were told your life's work was completely wrong!

Also, remeber that egoism runs deep in academia and the problem intensifies at university level.

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

FreedomIsYellow — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:23:48 GMT

Daniel Waite:
Anyway, provided I don't personally insult the teacher, and do the work assigned, what specifically should I avoid?

First of all, why are you at school? At the end of the day you need that piece of paper to get further with your career, whatever that may be. Sad, but true. We are libertarians, but we have to operate within the constraints of a statist society, for now at least.

There's nothing wrong with discussing ideas with your teachers, but keep in mind always that they are the ones who will be grading you or marking your exam papers, so cheesing them off isn't probably the best idea in the world. You just need to exercise a bit of tact ;)

It sounds like you have a valuable ally with that girl. Good luck, Daniel.

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

Daniel Waite — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:05:21 GMT

krazy kaju:
You should be careful when confronting teachers though. Just a warning.

I've been told this before; can you give specifics? My past is checkered with conflicts involving ideals, from family, to friends to employers. I've been booted from houses, briefly stopped talking to a few friends and have been fired or quit a number of jobs. I've been told I lack tact.

Anyway, provided I don't personally insult the teacher, and do the work assigned, what specifically should I avoid?

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

krazy kaju — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 03:53:21 GMT

You should be careful when confronting teachers though. Just a warning.

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

Nitroadict — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 03:25:41 GMT

liberty student:

Daniel Waite:
As an aside: A girl came up to me during break and asked if I had read Atlas Shrugged. I said, "By Ayn Rand? No, but I'm familiar with her arguments.". She went on for a bit about how great the book was and that I should read it. Then she paused, looked around the class and quietly said, "I feel like I'm surrounded by a bunch of communists." I smiled and said, "You are.".

Atta boy.

She sounds like a keeper. If she is remotley attractive, I'd go for it

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

revolutionist — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 03:11:41 GMT

Daniel Waite:

As an aside: A girl came up to me during break and asked if I had read Atlas Shrugged. I said, "By Ayn Rand? No, but I'm familiar with her arguments.". She went on for a bit about how great the book was and that I should read it. Then she paused, looked around the class and quietly said, "I feel like I'm surrounded by a bunch of communists." I smiled and said, "You are.".

It looks like you might score on this one!

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

liberty student — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 02:39:12 GMT

Daniel Waite:
As an aside: A girl came up to me during break and asked if I had read Atlas Shrugged. I said, "By Ayn Rand? No, but I'm familiar with her arguments.". She went on for a bit about how great the book was and that I should read it. Then she paused, looked around the class and quietly said, "I feel like I'm surrounded by a bunch of communists." I smiled and said, "You are.".

Atta boy.

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

Daniel Waite — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 02:31:38 GMT

krazy kaju:
Please, don't leave us with this cliffhanger. How would he "privatize" universal health care?

I'd love to know, too. He said he'd "wait until next week" or something. I'll definitely update this thread if he goes into detail. I doubt he will though.

@LS: I'd probably become _very_ paranoid if I attended that class high. For me at least, that would be a waste of contra-... enjoyment.

As an aside: A girl came up to me during break and asked if I had read Atlas Shrugged. I said, "By Ayn Rand? No, but I'm familiar with her arguments.". She went on for a bit about how great the book was and that I should read it. Then she paused, looked around the class and quietly said, "I feel like I'm surrounded by a bunch of communists." I smiled and said, "You are.".

Re: Politics class part 2: On universal healthcare

liberty student — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 02:21:21 GMT

Daniel Waite:
Looking back I wish I had lost control and announced, "Are you fucking high?". I may have been thrown out but it would have been worth it.

On the contrary, maybe you should be getting high, so you don't get thrown out.