General

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

meambobbo — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 02:07:36 GMT

hoffmanjohn:
in what part of the text of the Wagner act does it make it so that companies have to negiotate with unions?

The NRLB was obviously pro-union. It made it illegal to prevent laborers from unionizing (which they would have to voluntarily consent to). Then, whatever the "fair" workplace conditions, wages, and hours the unions demanded, the NRLB backed as reasonable standards. If the businesses violated such, they'd be prevented from using their property.

hoffmanjohn:
Furthermore buissness are allowed to union bust,and bring in scabs in order to break up a strike.

exactly. let me rephrase it though, so it will have emotional appeal to our argument:

Furthermore, businesses are allowed to fire employees who refuse to work and attempt to violently prevent honest, hard-working men from doing their work for lesser standards in wages, hours, and conditions.

hoffmanjohn:
False because non-union workers can leave at any time,and furthermore plants can relocate or do a number of things in order to weaken or destroy a unions influence.

False, because union workers can build their own factory or other capital at any time, and furthermore workers can relocate or do a number of other things in order to weaken or destroy the capitalists' influence.

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

DBratton — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 02:05:08 GMT

hoffmanjohn:
in what part of the text of the Wagner act does it make it so that companies have to negiotate with unions?

Specifically? It's Title 29 Chapter 7 Subchapter 2 Section 158 (a) Clause (5). To whit: "It shall be an unfair labor practice for an employer— (5) to refuse to bargain collectively with the representatives of his employees, subject to the provisions of section 159 (a) of this title.

You can read it in context here.

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

meambobbo — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 01:58:37 GMT

The Wagner Act forced businesses to comply with minimum wages, work standards, the right to unionize, the right to strike, and maximum work hours.

It was illegal for a business to fire striking employees, remove them from their property, and hire replacements. How can that be considered libertarian?

If the capitalists decided to go on strike, would the government prevent laborers from building their own capital? This whole discussion is absurd.

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

Spideynw — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 01:23:11 GMT

hoffmanjohn:
in what part of the text of the Wagner act does it make it so that companies have to negiotate with unions?

I am not sure if it is the Wagner Act, but it is in the act where it states that companies have to negotiate in good faith.

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

DBratton — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 00:52:29 GMT

hoffmanjohn:
when you make such a claim you need to provide proof

Does he need to provide proof when...

hoffmanjohn:
and furthermore unions have not always had such protections

you obviously already believe it's true?

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

hoffmanjohn — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 00:48:55 GMT

in what part of the text of the Wagner act does it make it so that companies have to negiotate with unions?

Furthermore buissness are allowed to union bust,and bring in scabs in order to break up a strike.

< In NO other situation is a human being or business compelled to enter into a contract against their will.>

False because non-union workers can leave at any time,and furthermore plants can relocate or do a number of things in order to weaken or destroy a unions influence.

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

hoffmanjohn — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 00:45:08 GMT

//No they're not, because the employer is forced by law to negotiate with the unions instead of just firing them and hiring others willing to work on individual terms.//

when you make such a claim you need to provide proof,and furthermore unions have not always had such protections. So its not like Unions are going to be non-democratic without government.

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

Mark B. — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 20:59:35 GMT

hoffmanjohn:
So Libertarains have no problem with government intervention when the government goes againts what the workers want?

<The true libertarian thing to do>

NTS Fallacy and thus there is no such thing as a TRUE Libertarian.

<would be to completely remove all labor legislation from the Federal and State books and require all unions to be voluntary.>

Unions are not just voluntary contracts,but they are also negiotable contracts(democratic in some sense).

Under the Wagner Act <Taft-Hartley notwithstanding> companies are REQUIRED to recognize and bargain with the union. This is a violation of the companies right of association. Government compulsion is used to FORCE companies to recognize and bargain with unions. They are forced to contract with the union. In NO other situation is a human being or business compelled to enter into a contract against their will.

For example. Suppose my neighbors and I shop at Publix. We can't get together and compel Publix to recognize us as a purchasing alliance and negotiate certain prices for the goods that Publix sells. Yet this is EXACTLY what unions compel of businesses with the compulsive force of government behind them.

The libertarian situation would be where workers could voluntarily associate with unions. Business would be free to recognize or not recognize the bargaining unit. Business could negotiate and sign contracts with the union or they could refrain from doing so. Individual workers could join the union and abide by the terms of the union contract or they could decline to join the union and negotiate their own terms with the employer.

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

Spideynw — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 20:57:11 GMT

hoffmanjohn:
So Libertarains have no problem with government intervention when the government goes againts what the workers want?

Really? The workers want union laws?

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

hoffmanjohn — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 20:42:50 GMT

<It's always good to see legislation that actually scales back the state rather than expands it. That's probably why it doesn't get a lot of ink.>

This statement suggest that the argument of big government vs small government is an acceptable standard. I disagree with this because not only are such things vauge,and rather subjective but they also constitute a false dilema.

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

hoffmanjohn — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 20:41:11 GMT

So Libertarains have no problem with government intervention when the government goes againts what the workers want?

NTS Fallacy and thus there is no such thing as a TRUE Libertarian.

Unions are not just voluntary contracts,but they are also negiotable contracts(democratic in some sense).

Re: why do Libertarian never make a big deal about the Taft–Hartley Act?

Mark B. — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 20:10:43 GMT

hoffmanjohn:
I find it pretty ridiculous that libertarians make a big deal about anti-trusts, and other such legislation that only effects a small amount of Americans. Libertarians never discuss the Taft-Hartley Act though,and this piece of legislation is probably the biggest anti-union bill on the books.

The Taft-Hartley Act makes possible the right to work laws in numerous states that allows workers to gain employment without having to pay tribute to a union to do so. While not libertarian in an of itself, at least it moves in a libertarian direction.

Also, it prevents secondary strikes and boycotts, so that unions cannot bring the economy snarling to a halt like they can in Europe. Again, while not fully libertarian, it moves in a libertarian direction.

I think that describes Taft Hartley overall. It is not a libertarian act, but at least it moves in that direction.

The true libertarian thing to do, of course, would be to completely remove all labor legislation from the Federal and State books and require all unions to be voluntary.